Is Weird Fiction Slanted Towards Western Values?

The title says it all. Is modern Weird Fiction largely slanted towards a view of the world informed by modern Western values, that is that it implies a perception of the world as 'inert' material to be mastered by human endeavor, usually technological, the punchline often being that we are too insignificant to carry out this operation.

Cosmicism, the most extreme example of this world-desire, is a horror of thwarted desire: Humanity simply are not up to the task of making the world amenable to Man.

Evans said:

The title says it all. Is modern Weird Fiction largely slanted towards a view of the world informed by modern Western values, that is that it implies a perception of the world as 'inert' material to be mastered by human endeavor, usually technological, the punchline often being that we are too insignificant to carry out this operation.

Cosmicism, the most extreme example of this world-desire, is a horror of thwarted desire: Humanity simply are not up to the task of making the world amenable to Man.

Click to expand...

I immediately thought of the mid to late Heidegger's destruction of Western metaphysics upon reading your post, which in turn made me think of Adorno and Horkheimer's critique of instrumental reason. "Thwarted desire" might correspond roughly to that part of the "object" which resists conceptual reduction or subsumption. Instead of a rational totality, there's an aspect of the material or natural world which forever eludes man's own understanding of things. One might think of "cosmicism" in the aforementioned manner.

Sounds pretty "Western" to me.

EDIT:

I usually dislike post-Marxist theory, but I feel rationality was ultimately corrupted by the advent of capitalism insofar as it transformed reason into a tool of efficiency, not a means by which happiness (self-perfection) is achieved, which is the classical definition of reason. Granted, I don't think either understanding (or historical mode?) of rationality brings happiness. Nevertheless, the latter account is beautiful and tragic, while the former is vulgar and worthy of contempt.

Just cosmic horror or modern weird fiction in general?

Evans said:

The title says it all. Is modern Weird Fiction largely slanted towards a view of the world informed by modern Western values, that is that it implies a perception of the world as 'inert' material to be mastered by human endeavor, usually technological, the punchline often being that we are too insignificant to carry out this operation.

Cosmicism, the most extreme example of this world-desire, is a horror of thwarted desire: Humanity simply are not up to the task of making the world amenable to Man.

Click to expand...

Are those, really, western values?
Also, what are typically oriental values?

The implied contrast here, with the image of the fatalistic, slothful orient- that's perhaps a bit western...

Mr. Veech said:

I immediately thought of the mid to late Heidegger's destruction of Western metaphysics upon reading your post, which in turn made me think of Adorno and Horkheimer's critique of instrumental reason. "Thwarted desire" might correspond roughly to that part of the "object" which resists conceptual reduction or subsumption. Instead of a rational totality, there's an aspect of the material or natural world which forever eludes man's own understanding of things. One might think of "cosmicism" in the aforementioned manner.

Click to expand...

I did think of Heidegger after I'd made that post. I would separate the 'instrumental' view of the world from the attempt to understand it though in the case of my criticism here the issue is not being unable to understand the world but being able to understand clearly that the world says 'No'.

Ibrahim said:

Are those, really, western values?

Click to expand...

Yes. If need be I can elaborate on their progressive development in Enlightenment Deism, Positivism, Utilitarianism and to a lesser extent economics.

Ibrahim said:

Also, what are typically oriental values?

Click to expand...

No one specific answer but I bring them up in contrast because:

A. Non-Dualism has historically had more prominence in Indian and Far Eastern thought.

B. Pantheism and Panentheism have had more influence in Indian, Native American, South American and to a lesser extent Islamic thought.

C. Animism has had more influence in African and South American thought

Ibrahim said:

The implied contrast here, with the image of the fatalistic, slothful orient- that's perhaps a bit western...

Click to expand...

No... Where again do I imply fatalistic or slothful?

The development of what we might call the weird tale outside of the West might not have happened if not for Eastern writers being exposed to Poe, especially the Japanese Modernists.

So, yes, I believe this is the case.

Ibrahim said:

Evans said:

The title says it all. Is modern Weird Fiction largely slanted towards a view of the world informed by modern Western values, that is that it implies a perception of the world as 'inert' material to be mastered by human endeavor, usually technological, the punchline often being that we are too insignificant to carry out this operation.

Cosmicism, the most extreme example of this world-desire, is a horror of thwarted desire: Humanity simply are not up to the task of making the world amenable to Man.

Click to expand...

Are those, really, western values?
Also, what are typically oriental values?

The implied contrast here, with the image of the fatalistic, slothful orient- that's perhaps a bit western...

Click to expand...

That's interesting. Ligotti himself, in the introduction to Noctuary, claims part of what makes a story "weird" is its fatalism, or at least the fatalism perceived by the one who encounters that which is weird or unsettling.

I'm assuming your use of the term "slothful" is in response to Evan's claim that the Western worldview is predominately technological. I prefer the term "reflective" over "slothful."

Nirvana In Karma said:

The development of what we might call the weird tale outside of the West might not have happened if not for Eastern writers being exposed to Poe, especially the Japanese Modernists.

So, yes, I believe this is the case.

Click to expand...

Japanese had their own established tradition of macabre and supernatural storytelling long before they were introduced to Poe.

I don't know if the concept of "mastering" the world comes into it, but scientific materialism is western in the sense that it achieved its highest expression in the west (though materialism is not just a western phenomena- ancient indian philosophers came to similar conclusions). Materialism's westernness seems more the fault of historical exigencies than an innate feature of western culture (or any culture for that matter).
Cosmic horror cannot exist without premodern beliefs in man's cosmic importance, beliefs shared across the globe. Cosmic horror is the conflict between man's ideas of his own importance with the modern, materialist picture of human insignificance. For westerners like Lovecraft and Ligotti, the presence of christianity is implied in their work, in the sense that it is behind the vanquished anthropocentrism. Cosmic horror could work in non-western societies that are anthropocentric- any (ex-)abrahamic can understand the existential horror of Lovecraft and Ligotti. I wonder how ex-muslims respond to cosmic horror- I imagine very similarly to ex-christians and ex-jews.
I know nothing of East Asian religions, however, and I have no idea if they would experience the horrifying incongruousness the (ex-)abrahamic feels.

I don't think any reader turns to weird literature for an affirmation of Western values.
r
Besides, classical authors were all over the place: writers as diverse as Machen and Kirk were Christians; Blackwood was a kind of pantheist who believed in some aspects of the occult.
Lovecraft's materialistic view was just one among many.

Evans said:

'

Ibrahim said:

Also, what are typically oriental values?

Click to expand...

No one specific answer but I bring them up in contrast because:

A. Non-Dualism has historically had more prominence in Indian and Far Eastern thought.

B. Pantheism and Panentheism have had more influence in Indian, Native American, South American and to a lesser extent Islamic thought.

C. Animism has had more influence in African and South American thought

Ibrahim said:

The implied contrast here, with the image of the fatalistic, slothful orient- that's perhaps a bit western...

Click to expand...

No... Where again do I imply fatalistic or slothful?

Click to expand...

The image of the industrious Occident engaging in technological endeavour to master the world is quite often contrasted to a kind of Imperialist caricature of the Orient as a passive Other; the image is still so prevalent, in fact, that stating the first part implies the second.

Also: are 'values' really that fully equivalent to philosophical systems? The list of -isms you provided does not take one jot of technological advance away from post-war Japan, or make contemporary China less economically industrious; how does a caliph's desire to master the world differ from a kaiser's? People, it is my experience, generally value the same things, east, west or south.

This has been mentioned so often it's becoming rote, but Europe would have neither doorknobs nor drainage systems nor algebra, had it not been for Islamic Spain, to the south of which of course lies the Maghreb ( arabic for 'the West'). The whole division sounds to me quite arbitrary, and dangerously suggesive of an imperialist agenda instead of objectively descriptive of some kind of reality.

But, how i would answer the original question:
Weird fiction aims for many things; i should like to hope differing from author to author ( lest i have been reading mere propaganda all this time).
If the author is Occidental (whatever that still means) then surely some of the surrounding values will be reflected in the fiction.
If the author is Intelligent ( a species that rarely cares about borders) then surely those values will not long remain unquestioned by the fiction.

Raul Urraca said:

Cosmic horror cannot exist without premodern beliefs in man's cosmic importance, beliefs shared across the globe. Cosmic horror is the conflict between man's ideas of his own importance with the modern, materialist picture of human insignificance.

Click to expand...

Is it? In Islam, as in most serious religious practice, it is quite crucial that one recognizes one's cosmic insignificance. Cosmic horror is a part of faith.

The term "insignificant" is vague; I should have used more nuance. Man is insignificant in Abrahamic religions in that he is dwarfed by God's grandeur/inhumanity/lack of need for humanity. However, he is still capable of being saved. There is a reward for the righteous after death and a future paradise after the world's end. Divine love makes him more significant than the uncaring cosmos. In the cosmic horror story, there is no salvation.

Raul Urraca said:

The term "insignificant" is vague; I should have used more nuance. Man is insignificant in Abrahamic religions in that he is dwarfed by God's grandeur/inhumanity/lack of need for humanity. However, he is still capable of being saved. There is a reward for the righteous after death and a future paradise after the world's end. Divine love makes him more significant than the uncaring cosmos. In the cosmic horror story, there is no salvation.

Click to expand...

Of course i understand perfectly well what you mean, & you're right. But the aspect remains, that with religion, if you're 'in it for the salvation,' salvation is still quite a while off. There is, i insist, a definite requirement to feel, first, the cosmic horror without hope or thought of salvation; to know despair as despair only & not as function of salvation.

At that level, the immersion in ( the idea of) an uncaring cosmos is the same. The first half of the Islamic Credo is a denial.

Ibrahim said:

The image of the industrious Occident engaging in technological endeavour to master the world is quite often contrasted to a kind of Imperialist caricature of the Orient as a passive Other; the image is still so prevalent, in fact, that stating the first part implies the second.

Click to expand...

Again no... All you have done is state that you don't like (your own strawman misinterpretations) of my position and cast vague moral assertions about my motives.

Ibrahim said:

Also: are 'values' really that fully equivalent to philosophical systems?

Click to expand...

How a certain being or collection of beings (in this case the cosmos) are ontologically categorized often effects how they are valued (it is likely for instance that we would attach a different value to a an axe or a hammer if we thought it was a moral agent).

Ibrahim said:

The list of -isms you provided does not take one jot of technological advance away from post-war Japan, or make contemporary China less economically industrious; how does a caliph's desire to master the world differ from a kaiser's?

Click to expand...

I never said it did. I never implied that a certain view of the world as inert material for technological conquest was of any necessity for technological advancement.

Ibrahim said:

This has been mentioned so often it's becoming rote, but Europe would have neither doorknobs nor drainage systems nor algebra, had it not been for Islamic Spain, to the south of which of course lies the Maghreb ( arabic for 'the West').

Click to expand...

Yes, I know this.

Ibrahim said:

The whole division sounds to me quite arbitrary, and dangerously suggesive of an imperialist agenda instead of objectively descriptive of some kind of reality. .

Click to expand...

See point 1. Why the divisions are not arbitrary in the instance has already been covered.

Raul Urraca said:

I don't know if the concept of "mastering" the world comes into it, but scientific materialism is western in the sense that it achieved its highest expression in the west (though materialism is not just a western phenomena- ancient indian philosophers came to similar conclusions). Materialism's westernness seems more the fault of historical exigencies than an innate feature of western culture (or any culture for that matter).

Click to expand...

I think the issue here is not so much the 'materialism' but the 'scientific' (you are of course absolutely correct about Indian philosophers have espoused a similar view to Epicurean Atomism, some Chinese thinkers did the same). Materialism is an ontological thesis and is no more inherently motivational towards the natural sciences than it is towards anything else e.g. poetry. The so called Scientific Materialism is a more overtly modern, Western idea, a running together of two different philosophical strands - ontological materialism and the epistemic view that virtually all knowledge should be deprived from the natural sciences, themselves often taken to be reducible to fundamental Physics (historically in the time of Lovecraft and before this view was associated not with materialism, a dangerously 'metaphysical' notion, but with Humean phenomenalism).

Those alone aren't enough to generate the perception of the world re Cosmic Horror that I mention though, I suspect there has to be some unspoken third element about scientific endevour being linked to moral improvement (through acquisition of Utility?).

Evans said:

Raul Urraca said:

I don't know if the concept of "mastering" the world comes into it, but scientific materialism is western in the sense that it achieved its highest expression in the west (though materialism is not just a western phenomena- ancient indian philosophers came to similar conclusions). Materialism's westernness seems more the fault of historical exigencies than an innate feature of western culture (or any culture for that matter).

Click to expand...

I think the issue here is not so much the 'materialism' but the 'scientific' (you are of course absolutely correct about Indian philosophers have espoused a similar view to Epicurean Atomism, some Chinese thinkers did the same). Materialism is an ontological thesis and is no more inherently motivational towards the natural sciences than it is towards anything else e.g. poetry. The so called Scientific Materialism is a more overtly modern, Western idea, a running together of two different philosophical strands - ontological materialism and the epistemic view that virtually all knowledge should be deprived from the natural sciences, themselves often taken to be reducible to fundamental Physics (historically in the time of Lovecraft and before this view was associated not with materialism, a dangerously 'metaphysical' notion, but with Humean phenomenalism).

Those alone aren't enough to generate the perception of the world re Cosmic Horror that I mention though, I suspect there has to be some unspoken third element about scientific endevour being linked to moral improvement (through acquisition of Utility?).

Click to expand...

I'm reminded of a book review I read yesterday, here:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/16106951

We still make moral arguments as if they were statements of fact, but we’ve lost the ability to articulate what makes them factual. To try to fill in the gap, we resort to fictions. To replace teleology we have “utility”; to replace God’s revealed laws, we have the categorical imperative or “inalienable human rights”. These are just phantasmagorical placeholders designed to fill in the inconvenient gaps in moral theory, but that have no more real existence than things like the luminiferous aether, which once served a similar purpose in physics.

...

Along with such fictional devices as “right” and “utility,” the modern age created “effectiveness” as a moral fetish. The bureaucratic manager uses the myth of managerial expertise to manipulate those being managed and to justify the managers’ power. The idea of managerial expertise implies a domain of real knowledge about social structures and their inputs and outputs of which the manager has specialized and true knowledge. This turns out to be a false claim.

Click to expand...

@ Ibrahim

Our knowledge of Aristotle (The Philosopher) is also mediated through Avicenna and Averroes. In fact, the very language of "existence" and "essence," so important to Western philosophy, was built on an Islamic interpretation of Aristotle. I'm sure you probably already knew that.

Mr. Veech said:

@ Ibrahim

Our knowledge of Aristotle (The Philosopher) is also mediated through Avicenna and Averroes. In fact, the very language of "existence" and "essence," so important to Western philosophy, was built on an Islamic interpretation of Aristotle. I'm sure you probably already knew that.

Click to expand...

Thank you. I have heard of that, yes; which is one of my objections to the (thus arbitrary) division between 'eastern' and 'western' thought.
These are all fine categories for academic research and indoctrination, but history is richer than the divisions we invent to understand it.

But my dear Evans, i am quite neutral about your motives; if anything, the depth and intelligence of your other posts slants my neutrality towards the appreciative, & to cast moral assertions about them is the last of my intentions.

I merely wish to point out that the east/west dichotomy, however one extrapolates upon it or explains it, has in itself such a long history of being used in Imperialist narratives that to borrow that simplification in whatever context also brings the 'flavour' of Imperialist discourse.

And, to be honest, it quite angers me ( but in an impersonal manner), that your answer, when i write

Evans said:

Ibrahim said:

The image of the industrious Occident engaging in technological endeavour to master the world is quite often contrasted to a kind of Imperialist caricature of the Orient as a passive Other; the image is still so prevalent, in fact, that stating the first part implies the second.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

is, simply, "No," as if i have dreamt 500 years of Imperialist propaganda.

I heard someone in an important postion at the Royal Conservatoire recently claim, in a public lecture, that the development of Jazz-rock, instead of being credited to African-Americans, should be credited to some obscure Polish band who named their jazz ensemble "Jazz Rock."
The (re)writing of history so that important events, persons can be presented as white, or western, is still very much an active phenomenon, and stating that certain values are western or eastern only emboldens such practices, think. & if i'm wary of this it is not because i feel everything should be centered around identity politics- it is quite the contrary. I like to be careful. That is all.

"Strawmanesque" doesn't quite have the same stature as Aickmanesque yet, but there should be a concerted effort, i do think. Perhaps an anthology. "Straw man's heirs."
Justin, where art thou?