Ex Occidente Press

[nomis]

Well, the market will pay what the market will pay. Leaving aside the issue of whether it's okay for people to buy books as investments (which seems no different whether it's a reader or seller) if someone is willing to pay £400 for a book then that's what it's worth, and if no one is... well, the book can remain on the shelf with that price tag until the end of time. That's how the market works.

That extra copy of Teatro Grottesco you bought, Chris. Are you going to resell it in a few years for the price you paid for it? I don't think it's much different than what that reseller did.

Again, let's leave your publisher argument out of it. Valid or not, your disagreements with others will give the conversation at the very least the appearance of being tainted.

[nomis]

Perhaps. I just don't see the difference between a bookseller marking a book up and crossing his fingers and a buyer who pays $20 for a book he knows is worth more. Are they both acting inappropriately? Is neither of them?

No one has to buy something that overpriced. Nothing in this world has an intrinsic value: we ascribe all value ourselves. If Reggie's first book is so important to someone that he is willing to hand over two weeks' wages to get a copy, then it's a fair price. If not, then he doesn't buy the book and if no one else does, the book will either languish or be sold for less. It's the buyers who dictate what a book ultimately sells for, or if it sells at all.

That's how I see it at any rate.

[Joel]

Suppose you buy books at reasonable prices, knowing that they will be worth more in the future, and planning to sell off your collection incrementally to subsidise your retirement. That's what many book collectors do if they live that long. And who can blame them?

Between that and shameless profiteering, there is probably a spectrum of more or less acceptable buying and selling that has to be judged on a case by case basis.

My overall judgement is: Hmmm.

[Russell Nash]

Questions for those who are "published writers":

When someone buys a book written by you, does it feel good? Or you share a nihilistic thought of "who cares who buys my book (as long as it is sold)?" I mean beyond any scant profit you can make of it? I'm taking into account that no one on the list is Stephen King, making millions with just one book. Having the possibility that many more don't have, to publish a book and say something, how do you feel when someone buys a copy of your "own" book just to make money without even reading a pssage, a line, a single word of it? For you, published writers, is it better to be read? to be published even more books? your work to be bought as investment (see my copy, wow, what a price!)? Why do you write? Why should I buy your work, and not someone else's that in the long run pays more? If I had $ 2,000 dollars to spend on myself, on my own whims, I would buy a Lovecraft's letter, that certainly is going to be always much more in the long run than any of Reggie Oliver's books? Why should I buy something? Does someome care nowadays? Or are we so immersed in this sick society that just money counts, and not what it is said?

[qcrisp]

Quote Originally Posted by Russell Nash

Questions for those who are "published writers": When someone buys a book written by you, does it feel good? Or you share a nihilistic thought of "who cares who buys my book (as long as it is sold)?" I mean beyond any scant profit you can make of it? I'm taking into account that no one on the list is Stephen King, making millions with just one book. Having the possibility that many more don't have, to publish a book and say something, how do you feel when someone buys a copy of your "own" book just to make money without even reading a pssage, a line, a single word of it? For you, published writers, is it better to be read? to be published even more books? your work to be bought as investment (see my copy, wow, what a price!)? Why do you write? Why should I buy your work, and not someone else's that in the long run pays more? If I had $ 2,000 dollars to spend on myself, on my own whims, I would buy a Lovecraft's letter, that certainly is going to be always much more in the long run than any of Reggie Oliver's books? Why should I buy something? Does someome care nowadays? Or are we so immersed in this sick society that just money counts, and not what it is said?

I have actually thought about some of this before. Having had book launches and so on for books of mine, I'm pretty sure that, at times, some people have made a purchase because I'm not a well-known writer, and they want to be polite/charitable, and I have been left feeling, "Please do not buy these books if you have no intention of reading them. There are only 200/300 copies in print. If you have no intention of reading it, all you are doing, by buying it, and hiding it away in your airing cupboard, is making sure that that copy is defunct, out of action, and no one will ever read it."

Buying books as an investment - and not to read - is something that is so strange to me that I haven't really contemplated it much, but, again, I'd prefer to be read. It would perhaps be undiplomatic in many ways to give concrete examples of how little money a writer in the independent press makes, but believe me, you'd be a fool if you were in it for the money.

[nomis]

Quote Originally Posted by Russell Nash

Questions for those who are "published writers": When someone buys a book written by you, does it feel good? Or you share a nihilistic thought of "who cares who buys my book (as long as it is sold)?" I mean beyond any scant profit you can make of it? I'm taking into account that no one on the list is Stephen King, making millions with just one book. Having the possibility that many more don't have, to publish a book and say something, how do you feel when someone buys a copy of your "own" book just to make money without even reading a pssage, a line, a single word of it? For you, published writers, is it better to be read? to be published even more books? your work to be bought as investment (see my copy, wow, what a price!)? Why do you write? Why should I buy your work, and not someone else's that in the long run pays more? If I had $ 2,000 dollars to spend on myself, on my own whims, I would buy a Lovecraft's letter, that certainly is going to be always much more in the long run than any of Reggie Oliver's books? Why should I buy something? Does someome care nowadays? Or are we so immersed in this sick society that just money counts, and not what it is said?

As Quentin suggests, I'd rather a book be read than stored away (especially in the case of my first book that shipped at a stunted 100 copies, many being bought by family and friends being polite), but your question presupposes too much. Not all books published go on to increase in value. I still believe that the bulk of small press book sales are not to investors, but rather those who are fans of the books, and who tend to buy only the one copy to read. Are there some that might be investing in Reggie Oliver's newer books? Possibly, but I also think you're confusing value of a book with it's contents. Just because you don't own a first edition Lovecraft doesn't mean you can't read his fiction. If Reggie Oliver's star really rises, there will be demand enough that the books will eventually be reprinted. If he never reaches that level of acclaim, if he stays at a 300-copy level, then the investors will disappear. For example, Terry Lamsley's first Ash Tree book sells for a higher price on the used market. The third, not nearly so.

A publisher ought to publish the numbers they feel they can sell of an author. If I object to anything, it's the micro-print runs of some items that serve no purpose but to irritate 90% of an authors fans. Case in point, the limited copies of "This Degenerate Little Town" which I would have loved to have owned but vanished immediately.

I just spent 45 minutes typing a response to the various issues raised here but the blasted TLO board suddenly went funny and lost the post.

Grr!!!!!!!!!!!

JK

	TLO THOMAS LIGOTTI ONLINE

[The New Nonsense]

This is a great discussion, gentlemen. It's given me a lot to think about and consider, including my personal buying habits and motives. It also occurred to me that perhaps the horror/weird fiction small press could learn something from the occult/metaphysical small press, especially publishers who print "talismanic" books. Take Xoanon Press for example: they print extremely high quality books in limited editions for a fair price. But here's the thing; one has to prove they're worthy to purchase said books. One has to write them a letter for approval; no email, no phone number -- you have to physically take the initiative to write them a letter. Only then will you be put on their mail list, maybe. Their mild screening process weeds out most would-be collectors and makes sure the books find their way into the hands of people who truly want to read the material, not just turn a profit. In addition, they reserve the right to deny sales to anyone and usually have a one copy limit per individual.

Even with these hurdles, all their books sell out pre-publication.
Of course there are still individuals who decide to sell their copies once the prices become astronomical, but that's a judgment call the individual has to make, usually after they've already read it.

[nomis]

To continue to veer off course in a direction not only off-topic but also one about which I'm terribly under-informed, it seems to me that had the nineties not seen a rush of companies going on a buying spree, consolidating the world into a few mega-companies, we might not be in this situation now where the USA government has to intervene to keep companies afloat. Greed destroyed the variation in the market -- the megabookstores killed the smaller shops -- now that those goliath companies are failing, there is nothing around to fill the void when they fall.

My hope is that we see the rebirth of a heterogeneous economy worldwide, but I'm not holding my breath that lessons have been learned.

[Joel]

Starrysothoth – that's just one manifestation of corporate capitalism, typical but not special, replicated in worldwide trends. I'm not even offering an 'analysis', just stating the fairly obvious.