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New Visions of Nature: Complexity and Authenticity

An important read for those interested in man-made nature, friendly robots, urban planning, and change in human genome.


@gveranon: I like this joke:

Mika and Peppe hadn't seen each other for ages, so they decided to get together for "one" beer. At the end of the first pint Peppe says
"How have you been?" Mika just grunts in reply.
At the end of the second pint Peppe asks
"So how's your family?" Again, Mika just grunts in reply.
After three pints Peppe asks
"How's work going?" Mika turns and shouts
"Perkele! Did we come here to talk or drink?!
Click to expand...


Taken from here FINNISH JOKES
 
I still don't believe ridicule will ever be effective, I think it's actually quite dangerous. Despite the right wing's fear of ridicule, they seem in a strange way invulnerable to it, or even fed by it in a masochistic way, as long as they have enough numbers who feel mocked they can play the tragic wounded animals who are fighting back for survival.
Since GW Bush and the accompanying ridicule, there's been an avalanche of increasingly absurd right wing figures who look like parodies at first sight.
If we start with the low blows, I fear the inevitably dirtier retaliation.

If you mock Trump's appearance, use arguably homophobic imagery and attack right wing trolls with claims of physical inadaquecy, sexual inexperience and living with their mothers (as if that's more shameful than living with your father), you are in a way reinforcing their worldview.

I say stick rigidly to their real faults and say it objectively as possible.
 
I'm totally fine with hitting back in self-defense and admire those who were defending people like the police are supposed to. But I fear if you initiate violence against Nazis they will hit back harder and with less qualms about it.
 
Robert Adam Gilmour said:
I say stick rigidly to their real faults and say it objectively as possible.
Click to expand...

Yep. Exactly.

Comfortable upper-middle-class "liberals" and conservatives have made a little cottage industry for themselves by monetizing their sneering and general panic over "the dotard" and his "Trumptard" followers, most of which has less to do with his actual governing than with lingering bitterness over the "stolen" election. (Naturally, they were all in the tank for Hilary from the start.)

This superior, inherently elitist attitude carries over to the ranks of Antifa and other professional agitators, whose numbers are largely made up of the children of privilege too.

The "Resistance" provides a vehicle for those in the Establishment and those who worship them to express their outright scorn for the lower classes and really anyone who doesn't share their version of reality. Label everyone who disagrees a Nazi or some clueless white-trash protofascist n order to dehumanize the entire opposition so you can claim the moral authority to punch them or create a public disturbance, and sooner or later a Democrat will reign again in the White House and happiness shall be restored throughout the land.

Or maybe eventually they'll start to realize that this strategy has backfired dramatically and will only keep making things worse. But I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
I don't know what to make of Antifa overall. I've heard a LOT of things I dislike about them but those among them who stuck their necks out to shield the public from violence could not be accused of retreating to a comfortable distance.
 
Oh, great. This again.

I think a good idea would be to stop making the right for fascists to spread fascism the sole human rights cause advocated on this forum, which rings the alarm bells for me and a few less vocal others. Maybe there are things to be more worried about?
 
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At least the far right posts have dwindled.

Perhaps I've missed something but I dont think I've seen Cannibal saying "they're both just as bad" or liking Trump.
 
The worst alt-righters have been banned, which I applaud the staff for (it isn't their fault the community became hijacked), but we need more fresh people before I can read far-right posts bashing people for not lying down while their rights are stripped away and not be grossed out and feel less welcome in this community for what I am.

I'd rather we talk about the Vernon Lee article instead. These 'debates' just make me sad.
 
The only people I would have voted for are Bernie and Jill Stein, maybe Biden. Not out of any ideological devotion, but because they struck me as fundamentally decent people, first. I didn't and wouldn't vote Trump, but at the same time I don't buy the hype that he was the worst candidate in the running, which is probably enough to make me a heretic in "liberal" circles. But I'm okay with that.
 
Robert Adam Gilmour said:
I still don't believe ridicule will ever be effective, I think it's actually quite dangerous. Despite the right wing's fear of ridicule, they seem in a strange way invulnerable to it, or even fed by it in a masochistic way, as long as they have enough numbers who feel mocked they can play the tragic wounded animals who are fighting back for survival.
Since GW Bush and the accompanying ridicule, there's been an avalanche of increasingly absurd right wing figures who look like parodies at first sight.
If we start with the low blows, I fear the inevitably dirtier retaliation.

If you mock Trump's appearance, use arguably homophobic imagery and attack right wing trolls with claims of physical inadaquecy, sexual inexperience and living with their mothers (as if that's more shameful than living with your father), you are in a way reinforcing their worldview.

I say stick rigidly to their real faults and say it objectively as possible.
Click to expand...

Yes! Oh God yes! A lot of outrage and name-calling is only really serves to cement tribal allegiances and at best cause those with opposing views to be quieter about them until the balance of power changes. It won't actually cause people to see the error of their ways. There's a disturbing multitude of people who'd rather call racists names than actually try to say why racism is wrong.
 
Evans said:
There's a disturbing multitude of people who'd rather call racists names than actually try to say why racism is wrong.
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I'm more annoyed by the racists than those calling racists names, personally. I don't think people are becoming more racist because of preachy activists. I think complaining more about those complaining about fascism is ultimately helpful to the fascists, who would be unwilling to listen if the antifascists were less awkward or preachy because, well, they're fascists. I mean... do you think people haven't tried explaining to racists why racism is wrong before the *gasp* name calling of people campaigning for the extermination of minorities?

Insulting, ridiculing and hurting fascists helps build an environment where fascism isn't acceptable, which is a good thing. Calling them names is fine and preferable to giving them podiums and public acceptance. The only people who are demanding otherwise are the privileged who pontificate while being in no danger themselves of the inevitable violence caused by the spreading and acceptability of fascism.

This place... wtf....

:/

Racists are arseholes.
 
James said:
I'm more annoyed by the racists than those calling racists names, personally.
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Okay? For the moment I find the prominence of later more disturbing as they make up a large number of people who should be our main defense against fascism.

James said:
I don't think people are becoming more racist because of preachy activists.
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I never implied they were. People are just less willing to listen, understand and actually engage with those with opposing views if all they get is edge.lord (TM) stuff.

James said:
I think complaining more about those complaining about fascism is ultimately helpful to the fascists, who would be unwilling to listen if the antifascists were less awkward or preachy because, well, they're fascists.
Click to expand...

Well, it's helpful to them in the same way that not arresting them for shooting J.F.K. or stealing their car keys is. Of course it's easier to stop people who hold views one considers with if one uses force, but that doesn't mean it's always right.

James said:
I mean... do you think people haven't tried explaining to racists why racism is wrong before the *gasp* name calling of people campaigning for the extermination of minorities?
Click to expand...

Historically of course they have. In the media no there has been far more of a focus on edge lord (tm) stuff. It is a process that has to be reiterated though as fascism and all such ideologies prey on the ignorant and arise again and again whenever a dissatisfied class looks for a scape-goat.

James said:
Insulting, ridiculing and hurting fascists helps build an environment where fascism isn't acceptable, which is a good thing.
Click to expand...

Just because something leads to a good outcome does not mean it's permissible to do aka the end does not necessarily justify the means. If you think otherwise fine, that's a metaethical dispute, but you'll need to be apply Consequentialism across the board consistently .

There is a truly disturbing slide towards 'every conservative must vote for Trump because otherwise the liberals will win' and 'every liberal has to vote for Hillary otherwise Trump will win'.

James said:
The only people who are demanding otherwise are the privileged who are in no danger of the inevitable violence caused by the spreading and acceptability of fascism.
Click to expand...

That's bs. Aside from being completely unfounded it also implies that no minority can maintain any kind of moral integrity if it means risking their own skins.
 
Evans said:
James said:
Insulting, ridiculing and hurting fascists helps build an environment where fascism isn't acceptable, which is a good thing.
Click to expand...

Just because something leads to a good outcome does not mean it's permissible to do aka the end does not necessarily justify the means. If you think otherwise fine, that's a metaethical dispute, but you'll need to be apply Consequentialism across the board consistently .
Click to expand...

:eek:
 
James said:
Evans said:
James said:
Insulting, ridiculing and hurting fascists helps build an environment where fascism isn't acceptable, which is a good thing.
Click to expand...

Just because something leads to a good outcome does not mean it's permissible to do aka the end does not necessarily justify the means. If you think otherwise fine, that's a metaethical dispute, but you'll need to be apply Consequentialism across the board consistently .
Click to expand...

:eek:
Click to expand...


And you know what that means! Voting Ted Cruz instead of Hillary if it's more likely to stop Trump getting in :eek::eek::eek:
 
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