Is science materialistic?

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This thread has made me confront what I already knew to be true. I believe I'm ready to finally embrace Christian theism. I'm ready to leave the swine trough of vulgar atheism, which includes philosophical pessimism. It feels glorious to finally think with my intellect as opposed to my emotions. I'm just ashamed that it took me this long.

I suppose I was afraid of ridicule. But that's patently absurd. I know I can hold my ground in terms of philosophical debate compared to the average person.

LOL. (Yes, that's derisive laughter). And here I thought we rid ourselves of MS. I thought I smelled something.

What does "MS" have to do with any of this? I'm interested in receiving an intelligent reply from you, although I suspect you'll leave your "derisive" remark and conveniently disappear.


I am sure I detected the foul stench of MS in your language. If I am wrong, I apologize. I don't think I am. You are correct in suspecting that I will not engage you in Christian apologetics. I honestly can't think of a bigger waste of time. Anyone that can look at this world and posit the idea of a benevolent god is someone I no longer have any interest in listening to. I don't have anything against deluded morons, but I have little patience with opinionated, loudmouth, deluded morons. You should note that I did not attack you for your opinions, only the way you condescendingly framed them. Keep in mind whose website you are on.

[1] I'm not Mark Samuels.

[2] "Moron" is not a valid argument.

[3] We can talk about the logical and/or evidential problem of evil if you want, which is what you brought up. We both might learn something in the process.

The Problem of Evil (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
 
I wrote the following paragraphs several hours ago and then debated whether to post them. I'm still not entirely sure that I've made the right decision in doing so. But anyway.

I have no dog in this fight. I offer the following words as an impartial observer.

Bendk, you said, "I don't have anything against deluded morons, but I have little patience with opinionated, loudmouth, deluded morons."

I ask you to please reread your own words, especially the final comma-separated list. I'm not saying you're a moron or deluded, because I don't think that at all, having known you here for quite some time. But to slam someone like you've just done, especially for being "opinionated," is pretty much the apex, acme, and apotheosis of turning a dagger backward to stab oneself in the eye. Mr. Veech said his peace. And he's entirely free to do so. I didn't detect the condescension in his words that you and James detected. It sounded to me like he was simply stating his confidence in being able to affirm and argue, to his own satisfaction, for a position that he has only recently, and somewhat to his own surprise, come to hold. He's free to hold that position and to state it here. As are you with your own positions and opinions. As is everybody else here. Please note that I'm not defending Mr. Veech. I'm talking about a principle.

There is no ideological purity test that's required for participation at TLO. But your comments really, strongly imply that there is. Or actually, they state it outright: "Keep in mind whose website you are on." Unless you meant this as a tonal warning for that perceived arrogance/condescension in Veech's statement? It's hard to tell, but the clear implication is that your warning applies at least equally to the content of his words. Although I'm not a moderator here, I was present for the establishment of this joint back in the late 1990s -- I was basically the second member after Jon, our illustrious founder -- and I can tell you that it's this particular conversational direction and approach, not Veech's statement, that is (or should be) anathema at TLO.

So actually, I do have a dog in this fight, although not as part of the specific incipient conflagration at hand. I care about TLO and the community it has become, and I have no interest in or patience with seeing it become -- or even with seeing signs that it might become, or that in the minds of some members it has already (wrongly) become -- a dogmatic echo chamber for a specific philosophical, metaphysical, ontological, moral/ethical, sociopolitical, or other point of view. For the past few years, there has been a specter haunting TLO, the specter of dogmatic rightthink. You have your own thoughts and perspective on what Veech said. Great and wonderful. Air and share them. That's all fair game and part of the healthy functioning of this (or any other) place. But to attack someone for the very fact of their statements, which is what you patently did, your disclaimer notwithstanding ("I don't have anything against deluded morons" -- seriously, bro?), and to assert or imply that there's something intrinsically unwelcome about their very thoughts and ideas and/or the sharing of them, is itself unwelcome.


EDIT NOTICE: Immediately after posting this text, I edited it to remove the excessive line breaks between the paragraphs that the TLO forum has been inserting lately.
 
@matt cardin: There is scorn on both sides. Mr. Veech's comment

"I'm ready to leave the swine trough of vulgar atheism, which includes philosophical pessimism."
was also not warm or welcoming.

EDIT: This thread has some wonderful insights but now has fallen into those cliche internet arguments of "Religion vs Atheism" or "Religion vs Science" (thank to this brief discord I have momentarily stopped daydreaming)
 
@matt cardin: There is scorn on both sides. Mr. Veech's comment

"I'm ready to leave the swine trough of vulgar atheism, which includes philosophical pessimism."
was also not warm or welcoming.

EDIT: This thread has some wonderful insights but now has fallen into those cliche internet arguments of "Religion vs Atheism" or "Religion vs Science" (thank to this brief discord I have momentarily stopped daydreaming)

I could've worded things differently. I actually had Christ's Sermon on the Mount in mind, namely Matthew 7:6. I was referring to my ongoing relationship with atheism, especially the tradition of philosophical pessimism. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I believe I'm entitled to call my attachment to a miserable worldview "piglike." So, if there was scorn, it was not directed at anyone here. It was directed at a specific worldview that is very, very familiar to me.

I'm not really upset at bendk. I suspect he (or she) has been hurt in the past. I also once thought Christians were "morons" who actively denied reality. Yeah, I've been there.

EDIT: What exactly did you find insightful about this thread? Was it the discussion concerning scientific methodology or the philosophy of mind?
 
@matt cardin: There is scorn on both sides. Mr. Veech's comment

"I'm ready to leave the swine trough of vulgar atheism, which includes philosophical pessimism."
was also not warm or welcoming.


Mr. V. has done a fine enough job of explaining himself in the post just prior to this one. What he describes in his clarification is actually the way I took his "swine trough" comment to begin with: as a personal statement of his own experience instead of an outward-directed expression of scorn to others. And how can one condemn or argue with that? I'm sure bendk could provide similar interesting and legitimate accounts and descriptions of the foundations of his own personal viewpoint. I tend to look at things the way Oswald Chambers described near the end of his life in his journal: "I begin to notice with astonishment that I do not read in order to notice what I disagree with, as many people seem to. The author’s conclusions are of very little moment to me, what is of moment is a living mind competently expressed, that to me is a deep joy."


What triggered my alert-warning was the clear implication in bendk's words that there was something untoward in the very fact of Mr V.'s saying what he said -- not on the grounds of mere decorum or etiquette, but on the grounds of a supposed ideological or philosophical inadmissibility, either of a general sort or because of some putative preexisting philosophical filter here at TLO. Again, I know he said that wasn't what he was doing, but it seemed and still seems clear to me that he was, in fact, doing it. And that's something to which I will always give an unreserved no, both at this site and in the wider world.
 
Mr. Veech: I was merely pointing out to @matt cardin the scorn that he couldn't detect in your comment but I did. Anyway, it's all smoke and mirrors.
 
Mr. Veech:
That theism of some kind is logical & a very reasonable ( if not the only reasonable ) choice i will not dispute, but may i ask, without laying down anything like a challenge, out of genuine interest, why you think Christian theism is then the most logical step ? ( Again, i will not use this as stepping stone for proselytizing for my own 'brand.' )

The link above to 'the problem of evil' features the same problem i've encountered in discussions of it elsewhere, which is the assumption that there is any holy book that mentions 'morality' and 'God has superior morality,' i.e. it seems like a straw man of the same order as the well-known 'i don't believe there's a bearded man on a cloud who judges us.'
It seems that the biblical attribution of absolute good to god only has added something to this confusion & fuels the fire of that particular argument though.
 
@matt cardin: There is scorn on both sides. Mr. Veech's comment

"I'm ready to leave the swine trough of vulgar atheism, which includes philosophical pessimism."
was also not warm or welcoming.


Mr. V. has done a fine enough job of explaining himself in the post just prior to this one. What he describes in his clarification is actually the way I took his "swine trough" comment to begin with: as a personal statement of his own experience instead of an outward-directed expression of scorn to others. And how can one condemn or argue with that? I'm sure bendk could provide similar interesting and legitimate accounts and descriptions of the foundations of his own personal viewpoint. I tend to look at things the way Oswald Chambers described near the end of his life in his journal: "I begin to notice with astonishment that I do not read in order to notice what I disagree with, as many people seem to. The author’s conclusions are of very little moment to me, what is of moment is a living mind competently expressed, that to me is a deep joy."


What triggered my alert-warning was the clear implication in bendk's words that there was something untoward in the very fact of Mr V.'s saying what he said -- not on the grounds of mere decorum or etiquette, but on the grounds of a supposed ideological or philosophical inadmissibility, either of a general sort or because of some putative preexisting philosophical filter here at TLO. Again, I know he said that wasn't what he was doing, but it seemed and still seems clear to me that he was, in fact, doing it. And that's something to which I will always give an unreserved no, both at this site and in the wider world.
I replied to your comment because I think you've rushed into the discord. Perhaps it wasn't your intention to defend Mr. Veech, but you did ignore Mr. Veech's earlier comment to focus on @bendk and the "the specter of dogmatic rightthink" supposedly haunting his mind.


I did bristle at Mr. Veech's "swine-trough" comment and understood it as he called Ligotti a swine. As you know, the forum is named after Ligotti (his name is also in large white letters at the top in fact), and it would be disrespectful and thoughtless to call someone a swine when you're in a forum named after him.


I have not been alarmed at "the specter of dogmatic right think" since there was only 1-4 members seriously espousing that mindset. Then again, I am not on FB or other weird fiction forums blog which might have broadcasted this view. A curious thing I have noticed in almost every thread: the tension between members celebrating Mr. Ligotti's works and others who are disturbed by this celebration. Insert other things here and it would be funny, but on this forum I really cannot joke about it.
 
Mr. Veech:
That theism of some kind is logical & a very reasonable ( if not the only reasonable ) choice i will not dispute, but may i ask, without laying down anything like a challenge, out of genuine interest, why you think Christian theism is then the most logical step ? ( Again, i will not use this as stepping stone for proselytizing for my own 'brand.' )

The link above to 'the problem of evil' features the same problem i've encountered in discussions of it elsewhere, which is the assumption that there is any holy book that mentions 'morality' and 'God has superior morality,' i.e. it seems like a straw man of the same order as the well-known 'i don't believe there's a bearded man on a cloud who judges us.'
It seems that the biblical attribution of absolute good to god only has added something to this confusion & fuels the fire of that particular argument though.

It's a result of personal factors as well as my having studied reformed theologians such as Cornelius Van Til, Barth, Luther, and Calvin. I've read Aquinas, but I don't particularly care for his commitment to Aristotelian metaphysics. My understanding of Scripture, although not bad, could be better. More importantly, I wouldn't be alive today were it not for Christians (I won't go there).

So, I'm not really sure what is meant by a "logical" step. One should use logic and reason to support their worldview, but I was never committed to atheism on the basis of "logic" or "empiricism." Life is far more complicated than that.
 
@ ToALonelyPeace

I'll always appreciate Ligotti's aesthetic talents as a writer. But his worldview cannot be lived. I didn't call him a "pig."

It's interesting to note that Ligotti likened existence itself to a "Great Black Swine," which is tantamount to saying that all of reality is inherently vulgar. Perhaps I had both Christ and Ligotti in my mind at the time. I know the former was there for sure.
 
I'm agnostic, anti-New Atheism and not anti-Christian at all, but the creepy reactionary element to this forum will always be embarrassing pseud trash to justify prejudices and always goes the same way. I really had thought we'd moved on from this. Ridiculous to be told that we just have to take being spoken to like crap by Newly Woke people espousing *checks notes* anti-science Christian conservatism.

More importantly, I wouldn't be alive today were it not for Christians (I won't go there).

Here we bloody go...

I'm out.
 
On perhaps a more general level, I would like to point out something else which is relevant to the question concerning whether "science is materialistic." I've been arguing that if it is, then science itself has no rational basis. Furthermore, if we accept that science is in fact rational, then materialism (which is typically used interchangeably with naturalism and atheism), is placed in serious jeopardy.

For philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle the world was, all things considered, a rational totality. Reason, in other words, did not simply belong to a finite subject (or man). And this is a perfectly good assumption to have if one believes that knowledge of the external world is in fact possible. Most contemporary schools of thought conveniently overlook the necessary "overlap" between the mind of man and the cosmos, not realizing that when they do so they're automatically delegitimizing their own position. Materialism (both old and new) is a perfect example of this.

Quentin Meillassoux, who is typically labeled a "speculative materialist," is a natural byproduct of the aforementioned problem. His critique of correlationism along with his notion of "hyper-chaos" has its beginnings in Hume's critique of induction, which was tantamount to the rejection of the necessity governing the uniformity of nature. It was assumed before Hume that the uniformity of nature was controlled by God. But that was ultimately seen as irrational, so along comes Kant. Kant believed that we can't prove God's existence, so the uniformity of nature must be a product of our own cognitive faculties, i.e., causality doesn't exist outside our own mind. Hegel comes along and notices that, given Kant's presuppositions, we can't have knowledge of the world outside our own head. Therefore, we need to expand the concept of mind so that we can have such knowledge. But Hegelian idealism eventually became too old fashioned for armchair philosophers who needed academic careers. We've had a supposed "crisis" of knowledge since Kant. We've had to endure such schools of thought as phenomenology, existentialism, structuralism, and post-structuralism (just to name a handful). But now comes along a critique of Kant by the so-called speculative realists, which is viewed by many as the latest and most "fashionable" school of thought within the realm of Continental philosophy. Their primary conclusion is the following:

"We can know objective reality apart from our direct apprehension of said reality."

Both the common man as well as the theologian already knew this. In any case, we now have Meillassoux who rejects Kantianism in every possible form through his rejection of "correlationism," which basically means that we can't really know the world outside of our subjective apprehension of it. The only problem is that now we're back where we started, namely Hume's critique of induction, which was (once again) a critique of the necessity governing the uniformity of nature. Because Meillassoux doesn't believe in God, he must now argue that the world studied by science is radically contingent, that the supposed uniformity of nature is merely a byproduct of what he calls "hyper-chaos." If we are to believe Meillassoux, then science, which includes the scientific method, has no rational basis. But Meillassoux is just one participant in this circus of ideas. We've got Zizek, who believes on the basis of Lacan and a refashioned Hegel, that human consciousness "exists" as a continual negation of the symbolic order (or language). We've got Judith Butler's "performativity theory," which is essentially identical to Sartre's ontology as it is described in Being and Nothingness. We've got Derrida, whose entire "philosophy" is based on a form of inverted Hegelianism. We've got Foucault, who convinced us that power relations were omnipresent before all else. We've got Latourian "plasmas," Lyotardian "differends," Heideggerian "unconcealments," Bataille's "base materialism," Larullelian "non-philosophies," (ad infinitum).

What instigated this long and convoluted process was the view that it is positively irrational to believe that God controlled the uniformity of nature. It was seen as more "rational" to suppose that man conditioned the external world through his own faculties (Kant). The irony, if I haven't made it sufficently clear by now, is that the rejection of the belief in God has now produced an entire marketplace of ideas which are positively irrational.

*face palm*

No, James, I'm not "anti-science."
 
I think vBulletin should give extra points for starting a thread that engenders a public conversion. The rest of us can just log off now.
 
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