Re: Rene Guenon, Alt Right, Traditionalism etc
 

This is a strange conversation for a site devoted to horror fiction, weird fiction, and some antinatalism. But to continue my own participation:

Hidden X stated: You are equating extremists who are abusing WORTHY movements and philosophies, with their action sometimes being in the direct opposition of philosophies they outwardly claim to support, with those who are acting in accordance with philosophy whose very core is authoritarian and bigoted.

Actually, no, I suspect that you yourself are making the exact error you describe in your quote. There are indeed extremists abusing worthy movements and philosophies, AND one of those abused worthy philosophies appears to be Tradition.

It's obvious that no one in this thread is defending the Alt-Right or any racist, bigoted or authoritarian philosophies. However some are defending the scholarly Perennial Tradition which posits an ancient and universal spiritual heritage as manifested through a seeming diversity of exoteric and esoteric lineages. I suggest that others on this thread are equating right-wing nationalists and racists with Tradition out of simple ignorance.

But if that is incorrect, please prove this by quoting legitimate Traditionalists such as Huston Smith, Jacob Needleman, Aldous Huxley, Frithjof Schuon, Titus Burkhardt, Rene Guenon, Ramakrishna, A. Coomaraswamy, Henry Corbin and Hossein Nasr. Even contemporary religious scholar Karen Armstrong is considered a voice of Tradition.

Simply saying that the philosophies you happen to like or understand are worthy, and those you don't are not, doesn't carry much weight. And quoting ignorant fascists using a smattering of whatever knowledge to bolster their racist statements, (or even worse, anonymous internet trolls doing so), does not constitute a serious argument against the sources of Tradition.

What is your source for declaring the "very core" of Tradition as unworthy or bigoted?

Re: Rene Guenon, Alt Right, Traditionalism etc
 

Yes, and as already stated, all that's needed is to look at page one of this message thread for details on why this is so.

Re: Rene Guenon, Alt Right, Traditionalism etc
 

Gnostic Angel, yes I am familiar with those figures and the person I referred to as X is also very familiar with them, having published their work and written on them. He has also expressed his support for groups like Hezbollah, Hamas etc so we are not talking about some frustrated-teen-in-the basement character.

Re: Rene Guenon, Alt Right, Traditionalism etc
 

An addendum to my last post on this, my last this morning due to schedules.

For those interested, one of the best measures for separating the Alt. Right and their ilk from the students of Tradition is by looking for Islamophobia. Racists, nationalists and apparently followers of the Alt.Right can be virulently Islamophobic.

On the other hand, many scholars of Tradition were and are deeply devoted to the study of the core tenets of Islam as much as any other religion. The philosopher Seyyed Hossein Nasr is an excellent example.

Re: Rene Guenon, Alt Right, Traditionalism etc
 

One thing that strikes me about many of the followers of 'Traditionalism' is a lack of humility. They love talking about religion and the sacred, but few seem to have the humility and self-abasement to go into a church/mosque/temple or whatever and simply pray. It is as if they want the good things of religion with none of the sacrifices. The ordinary worshiper is not good enough for them apparently; there has to be tiers of rank, with themselves at the top, needless to say.

As the much-missed (from these pages) Mark Samuels puts it in his critique:

"Moreover, truth is to be found only within a spiritual-intellectual gnostic elite, and certainly not available to all humankind as the likes of Jesus Christ, Mohammed, or Moses – scarcely Evolian types – were reported to have asserted.

The faithful peasant women telling their rosary beads at Mass, the humblest servant of Allah on their prayer-mat, the elderly Jewish man keeping holy the Sabbath, all these ‘dupes’ are fulfilling the ‘exoteric’ doctrines of their faith.


All those poor ‘plebs’ reaching to the Absolute will find it doesn’t reach back."

Mark Samuels's Blog - Julius Evola: Boring Gnosticism Revived - August 19, 2016 13:52

Re: Rene Guenon, Alt Right, Traditionalism etc
 

The alt-right are ultimately as bad as the SJWs they detest when it comes to acceptance of other opinions and a general lack of nuance. They're all for free speech until somebody disagrees with them. Then the doxing and harassment begins just the same with the other side. It's the same movement that sees a billionaire who tries to sue people who joke about him as a free speech activist.

Almost none of them seem to have even the vaguest clue what Marxism or socialism actually mean. It's an anti-identity politics ideology which is almost exclusively about identity politics to the exclusion of economic thought. Sure capitalism is killing the planet, but this feminist vlogger says things we don't agree with so we must elect a capricious maniac and give him the nuclear codes.

Their ideological leaders Donald Trump and Milo Yiannopoulos don't believe anything they themselves say and operate on a platform of making themselves more popular for populism's sake. There are a worrying amount of idiotic men who have fallen for this and believe they are fighting for something.

Re: Rene Guenon, Alt Right, Traditionalism etc
 

I've just found this quote, which I like:

“This is how philosophers should salute each other: ‘Take your time.'”
― Ludwig Wittgenstein

I often feel that the internet encourages quite the opposite of this.

Re: Rene Guenon, Alt Right, Traditionalism etc
 

Thanks to OP Malone, as well as Qcrisp, Evans, Prince James Zaleski, Hidden X and others for their thoughtful postings on this topic.

Setting aside for a moment the debate over the supposed Alt-Right identification with scholarly Tradition, I was struck by this statement:

".....but few seem to have the humility and self-abasement to go into a church/mosque/temple or whatever and simply pray. It is as if they want the good things of religion with none of the sacrifices."

Taking this quote out of context, it reminded me of a completely different criticism that I believe is equally valid for traditional Abrahamic religion and for Tradition, (since the Perennial Tradition shares many principles of monotheistic traditions, along with non-dualist philosophies). Why not address the problems with the whole lot?

That is the implication that there is a redemptive quality to suffering and sacrifice, and some religious or spiritual value in self abasement, often in the hope of receiving salvation from an outside power.

Raised in a harsh Catholic school system, I long struggled with this issue and now no longer believe that there is any redemptive value to suffering. The teaching that suffering has a deeper spiritual purpose seems to me a lie that has been used to oppress millions. I've been greatly impressed with the work of neo-gnostic John Lash, whose book "Not In His Image" attacks the salvationist theology of the Judeo-Christian tradition from a Gnostic-Pagan perspective.

Here is a quote from the post-Traditionalist consciousness researcher, Stanislav Grof MD about the book:

"John Lamb Lash's Not in His Image is a rare achievement, combining impeccable scholarship with remarkable visionary insight. In a breathtaking tour de force, the author provides a profound analysis of the history of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam and their connections to the patriarchal system. He identifies the deep roots of the intrinsic problems of these three religions-- perpetrator-victim emphasis and salvationist ideology--and points out their relationship to the alienation and agony of modern humanity. This book is a must for everybody who is trying to understand the psychospiritual currents underlying the present global crisis."

I highly recommend this book to anyone following the discussion of this thread. And since Lash addresses the mysterious issue of the demonic "Archons" in Gnostic theory, it may be of interest to Ligotti and Guy de Maupassant fans.


... Also, I want to echo Malone's sentiment that Mark Samuels is missed and would be a welcome addition to this thread!

Re: Rene Guenon, Alt Right, Traditionalism etc
 

Suffering is just suffering and we learn little or nothing from it. As a great philosopher once said, "What doesn't kill you just makes you wish you were dead."
Gurdjieff believed in something called "conscious suffering." That is a very different thing.

Re: Rene Guenon, Alt Right, Traditionalism etc
 

Re. "Suffering is just suffering and we learn little or nothing from it. As a great philosopher once said, "What doesn't kill you just makes you wish you were dead."

Gurdjieff believed in something called "conscious suffering." That is a very different thing."

Agreed on both points, Druidic!