Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Over the years I've noticed the vast majority of members on TLO are male. I'd estimate women make up less than 10% of TLO's membership, and I suspect this is reflected in Ligotti's readership as well. I began to wonder why this is. Granted, the horror genre in general, whether it's literature or film, is largely enjoyed mostly by males; however, I think this is mostly due to the coarse and graphic nature of some horror and thus unappealing to many women. Ligotti, on the other hand, doesn't include gore or graphic violence. I personally consider Ligotti's work a gray, uncharted, no-man's-land between horror and philosophy. So why doesn't he have more female fans?

I did encounter an exception to the rule about 10 years ago. I met a girl who read (and loved) Ligotti. We were on our first date, and in conversation she brought up his book Grimscribe. I just about fell out of my chair! She was attracted to the nightmarish beauty his stories have. My current girlfriend likes Ligotti, but in general she prefers Dark Fantasy -- authors like Neil Gaiman and China Mieville.

Women do read horror. Stephen King for example has a HUGE female fan base. Could this be because (and I hate to include a stereotype here) his stories also include a healthy amount of mystery and drama?

So what is it about Ligotti's work that is generally unappealing to women? Could the answer be as easy as selective marketing? Or it is because nearly all of his protagonists are male? I've also noticed that, like H.P. Lovecraft, whenever he has a female character they often show up in negative roles -- but this IS horror after all, most roles are negative in general. I don't think there is necessarily any misogynistic current within his work. I believe his male protagonists are simply a result of writing what he knows.

Lately it seems Ligotti has been lumped into the sub-genre category "New Weird". The new anthology The New Weird edited by Ann & Jeff Vandermeer contains Ligotti's "A Soft Voice Whispers Nothing". When I picked up my copy it was filed within the Sci-Fi/Fantasy section, not the Horror section. In The New Weird his story sits right alongside authors: Jeffrey Ford, Michael Moorcock, Michael Cisco, M. John Harrison, and China Mieville. Perhaps this will lead to more exposure to those who shun traditional horror. In the intro to The New Weird Jeff Vandermeer says, "I continued to find a voice in the work of Thomas Ligotti, who straddled a space between the traditional and the avant garde." Is it possible Ligotti has been somewhat mislabeled all along? Does a label as simple as "Horror" adequately sum up his oeuvre? Does it unintentionally isolate the work from potential new, and in particular, female readers?

I'd really like to hear a female perspective on this. Any takers? Are there any out there? Of course I'd like to hear the guys' opinion too.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

I agree with your observations, TNN.
I shall hopefully address this subject properly when I am less 'pickled', but currently I'd say it is simply a fact of life you describe, one that shall remain delightfully inexplicable.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

candy, my coworker, friend, and fellow TLO member posted this a while back in des' "Elizabeth Bowen" thread:

THE NIGHTMARE NETWORK - View Single Post - Elizabeth Bowen

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Extremely interesting thread. It's something I've thought about, Kevin, but something I've never gave a lot of thought to, if that makes sense. To think and then not to think?

I have several female friends and they are not keen on Ligotti. "I didn't understand a word he wrote, " one told me. That happens to me a lot with his writing too, but the mystery behind the author captures my attention totally.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Perhaps we can consider other points. For example, is it possible that male readers dominate detective fiction, espionage, and political thrillers, and that these works have the same qualities as mainstream horror fiction in the sense that they are also meant primarily to entertain? Also, do you think works like A.S. Byatt's Possession are similar to Ligotti's in the sense that they are also more philosophical than entertaining?

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

A.S. Byatt (Antonia Byatt, I believe) is a very interesting writer and attracts my Ligottian antennae, I know not fully why.
I am reading her 1979 novel The Virgin in the Garden about a verse drama being enacted in 1953 England for the Coronation. It is magnificent. The best I've read of hers so far. Only yesterday (before paeng had written his post here), I put up an extract from this novel here:
http://weirdmonger.blog-city.com/byatts_grecian_urn.htm

And also I wrote to veils & piques saying this:

Has anyone read the chapter entitled 'Meat' in 'The Virgin in the
Garden' by A.S.Byatt? This is a truly sickening description of a
butcher's shop in 1953 England - but somehow also related to a
geometrical concept not dissimilar to how I imagine 'Cone Zero' to be.

I was almost physically sick after reading that chapter, it's so powerfully written.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Is The Virgin in the Garden a long book, des? I'm curious now.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

I've just put The Virgin in the Garden on hold at my local library.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

428 pages, Barry.
des

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Thank you for mentioning Virgin in the Garden and the Veils group! I was also going to mention Angela Carter. Finally, given these two writers, I wonder if there are other reasons why more men than women appear to appreciate Ligotti's works.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

I've now read the 'Nursery Garden' chapter in that novel, and there is a concept even closer to what I consider CONE ZERO to be... plus this striking passage about something else:

"Every day something new became problematic and difficult. An early thing was books, always bad and now impossible. Print reared off the pages like snakes striking. His eye got entangled by the anomalous, like the letter g, and the peculiar disparity between its written and printed forms. Reading was unmanageable because he measured frequencies of gs, or sat and stared, mesmerised by one. Any word will look odd, stared at, as though it was incorrect or unreal or not a word. Now all words were like that."

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Thanks for recommending A.S. Byatt. Her work sounds interesting. I'm going to have to check it out.

This brings up another point: Obviously there are plenty of female horror writers (though still outnumbered by men), and some of the greatest works of horror have been written by women.

Just to name a few ladies of horror: Anne Rice, Poppy Z. Brite, Joyce Carol Oates, Shirley Jackson, Flannery O'Connor, Mary Shelley, Suzy McKee Charnas, Beth Massie, Caitlan R. Kiernan, Katherine Dunn, Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, Lisa Tuttle, Kathe Koja, Tanith Lee, Nancy A. Collins, Lucy Taylor, Jessica Amanda Salmonson, Mehitobel Wilson, Charlee Jacob, and Kim Newman -- (that last one's a joke).

So it appears female horror writers hold a much larger percentage than do female horror readers. It's all very puzzling.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

I don't doubt that Ligotti appeals almost exclusively to men.

As well ask, why do many authors appeal almost exclusively to women? There's a myriad of romance authors, none of whom, I would guess, has ever been read by a single man. What about that?

Therein lies the answer, I think. Subject matter. Women like reading about relationships, juicy love affairs, etc. The emotional texture of TL is intellectual, often dry, though always fascinating. If he has a short suite, I think it is in fleshing out and adding verisimilitude to male/female relationships. Not that I want him to start now.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

I do not detect a short suit in Thomas Ligotti's depictions of interaction between the sexes. If anything, there is often a sense of tragedy or of tension in the stories. An outright grab at and/or struggle for dominance seems to underly many pieces as well. To my mind, the most starcrossed relationship is that of Prena and Lamm in "Dr. Voke and Mr. Veech." Tragic beyond words. The villains of "The Chymist," "The Frolic," "Drink to Me Only with Labyrinthine Eyes," and "Les Fleurs" easily pluck their victims like apples from trees. Struggles between the sexes for dominance are evident in "Eye of the Lynx," "The Medusa," "Conversations in a Dead Language," "The Bungalow House," "The Bells Will Sound Forever," and "My Work Is Not Yet Done." Since I'm typing off the cuff, I'm sure some other fine examples have eluded my memory. Mr. Ligotti's fictions slyly mirror the workings of the real world as we conveniently know't. And the beat goes on...

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

For about a year I have hovered around TLO, availing myself of the excellent bibliographic resources and exploring various threads on the forum. From the start I wanted to register and participate in the ongoing discussions, but never did so out of reticence. The New Nonsense's post above and the responses to it have finally forced me out of the woodwork. To the question "Are there any [women who read Thomas Ligotti] out there?" I'm happy to answer: Yes.
I regard Thomas Ligotti's works as indispensable to my existence. Whether there are or aren't other women who share this perspective I cannot say. It is not surprising that TL's readers -- both male and female -- are few and far between, since he remains little known to the readership at large. The primary problem, it seems to me, is that TL's publications are literally inaccessible, either out of print or out of the average reader's price range. Hopefully, both The Conspiracy Against the Human Race and the forthcoming paperback of Teatro Grottesco will reach a wide and diverse audience, women included.
In a small effort to make TL's work available to potential readers, I recently recommended Songs of A Dead Dreamer, Grimscribe, and The Shadow at the Bottom of the World to the library acquisitions office at the university I attend as a graduate student. All three books are now on the shelf, ready to circulate -- and over time, I know they will.
Thank you, Nemonymous, G.S. Carnivals, barrywood, paeng, Kevin, and The New Nonsense for starting this thread and keeping it going. I hope none of you will mind if I stop by every now and then to join the conversation!

All best,

Daisy

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Welcome, Daisy. I enjoyed your posting. I'm enjoying this thread as well and I am thankful it was started in the first place. Thanks to the unstoppable Dr. Bantham this site exists and, as a member, nothing is more pleasurable than meeting another fan of Thomas Ligotti.

Please accept my cyber handshake in friendship, Daisy.

:D

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Thanks for your kind note, barrywood. It's wonderful to meet you and to be a part of this forum at last!

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Greetings Daisy. I'm glad this topic has lured you out of the woodwork. It's good to read a woman's point of view in regards to Ligotti. Even better to read that you view Ligotti as, "indispensable to my existence". I know the feeling. Thanks for sharing your opinion. I agree, the limited availability of Ligotti's work makes it difficult for anyone, male OR female, to encounter his genius.

Are there any aspects of his work that you like in particular?

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Hello, The New Nonsense, and many thanks for your reply. In his essay "Soft Black Star," published in the Thomas Ligotti Reader, David Tibet proclaims TL "the greatest writer of our time in any genre." I couldn't agree more. Thomas Ligotti, pessimist philosopher and poet, is without equal. Below, I appropriated the phrase, indispensable to my existence, from a text which is exactly that: The Conspiracy Against the Human Race. In my opinion, it is the most important thing he has ever written. The experience of reading it is akin to hearing a favorite piece of music, in the sense that it's impossible not to be compelled, and moved, by thoughts and themes so sensationally expressed. I also find CATHR to be a work of rigorous scholarship, an excavation of ideas that have been previously ignored or relegated to the margins of history.
I want to add here that, while it is rarely celebrated as much as his fiction, TL's poetry is very great. I'm of the view that, if he had written nothing other than "This Degenerate Little Town," he'd still deserve David Tibet's honorific.
I'll stop now, because I'm in danger of derailing this thread once and for all! Thanks again for welcoming me to TLO.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Hi Daisy: You're not derailing this thread; you're adding to it. I am much enjoying this thread--to the extreme, in fact. Thank you, Kevin, for starting it.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

perhaps instead of suggesting that ligotti's writing appeals more to men than women, one could suggest that these types of online forums tend to be more male dominated. i've known several literary minded females who enjoy tl's writing but would be not so inclined to participate in an online discussion of said writings.
also, glad to see angela carter mentioned in this context, she is one of my favorite authors. i have commented on the import of heroes and vilains to myself in another thread..i would also include elizabeth jane howard's collaborations w/robert aickman and the work of unica zurn and leonora carrington (at least her short stories) and anna kavan in the same breath. not to mention the numerous gothic and pseudo/semi gothic female writers...shelley, brontes especially...if not in style, at least in philosophy.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

First, let me also welcome Daisy to TLO. Just from your first posts it seems to me that an important member of this community has joined us. Thanks for your insight.
I also enjoyed every other post. Oftentimes work keeps me from being a regular reader and contributor here, but I then get the intense pleasure of a big dose of some fine, thoughtful discussion on one of my favorite authors. I don't do drugs but it must be something like the rush from a fix.
I would like to comment on two implied ideas that Daisy has brought up. First, I think that it is up to us to spread the word about Thomas Ligotti. He's a much better American writer than some who have received Nobel prizes. (To name just one- Pearl Buck??!!!) Maybe his unique vision will always appeal more to men than to women but if more readers had the opportunity to read a few of his stories that may change.
Most of the writers listed in the various posts are very, very good. Also, most of them weren't really all that popular. There are exceptions, but, usually, the better a writer is the fewer readers he or she has. Most people just don't want to do that kind of mental work. They loose out on the beauties of great writing, but that has always been the case.
The other thing to remember is that for a couple hundred years now there has been a multi-media tie-in for most of the popular novels. Even before there were films a lot of works were turned into plays. James O'Neil, Eugene's father, starred in the road company of "The Count of Monte Cristo" for example. With movies and television Ligotti would be an even tougher sell. Can anyone imagine a part in any Ligotti story for Tom Cruise or Will Smith? Out of all of his stories, which one could be pitched to Jessica Alba's people? These days the visual media make things popular - or even more popular. Even the Harry Potter sales doubled when the movies came out.
Generally, the average person looks for heros and some kind of successful resolution in a story, but as the world becomes more like the universe that Ligotti describes, he will gain more readers, both men and women. Maybe we should think of ways to speed up his popularity.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Great posting, Mr. D.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

I appreciate your gracious words, Mr. D., and am delighted to be in conversation with you, Barry, Patrick Mullins, and the others. After reading and thinking about your post, it occurred to me that the year 2010 will mark the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Silver Scarab publication of Songs of a Dead Dreamer. Wouldn't it be excellent if there were plans at that stage for, say, an international symposium devoted exclusively to the works of Thomas Ligotti? Such an effort might help not only to raise the profile of this major author but also to commemorate his landmark book. Something to consider, in the long term!
To go back to the issue of women writers, I think the accomplished ones named in Patrick's post and throughout this thread had to have been steeped as readers in the horror tradition before they ever took up the pen. Some women, such as Jessica Amanda Salmonson and Ellen Datlow, have made their mark not only as writers but as editors, demonstrating their critical skills. I'm reminded here of a line -- which never fails to stop me in my tracks -- from Dario Argento's film Inferno (1980). When a young woman goes into a bookshop to ask about a supernatural title, the bookseller says, "Women are usually the worst readers of such stuff. Or the best, if you prefer."

Take care, all,

Daisy

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Here's another female reader of Ligotti (or rather: a starter in the field of Ligotti's works) and Lovecraft (obviously).

I just happen to love horror in itself and Ligotti fascinates me because of the very way he writes and because of the psychological elements.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Female, and reads Ligotti.

And watches the films of Dario Argento. Another thing that women aren't supposed to do.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Well, my wife reads Lovecraft. In fact, it was for this very simple reason I met her and I married her 12 years ago. I always suspected that she was lying, though. In any case, I positively know that she did read Lovecraft's works after marrying me. She read Ligotti too. And others.

By the way, her sister read Lovecraft too. But, I also suspect that she is lying...

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Quiz them. ;)

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Exchange Dario Argento for the series "Hellraiser" and "Nightmare on Elmstreet" and we're even again. If that doesn't count enough, add an addiction for Batman comics.
:)

Not a very trusting soul, are you? :D
I can't help but wonder why so many guys (?) think that horror novels and similar are predominantly a male think, while women are supposed to read romantic stories. That is actually the kind of literature that makes me sick ... But well, I'm just as weird as my favourite literature I suppose *haha*.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

The third time I met my wife, she invited me to a an exhibition of "Torture Instruments". Yes, I was surprised. It was in a museum, and I remembered having seen several couples at that time. That most people would rather go somewhere else, yes, but she invited me to go there and I gladly accepted it.

After watching my wife for 12 years, I think that she is not so inclined to read Horror Literature as I am. Except for a few stories that I suggested her to read, she didn't like Ashton Smith at all. But she likes Edith Wharton instead. We both like Borges; she likes Turgeniev, I like Andreyev. I really don't think she even likes Horror stories now. In fact, I think that I don't write many more horror stories, basically because she doesn't want to read them.

I did. The first time I asked my wife: "did you read Dagon?" "yes", she answered. I replied: "...the book or the story?" If the answered is: the book, she didn't read it, because there is no such a book written by Lovecraft (it's "Dagon and other tales", the same title in Spanish). If the answer is: the story, didn't she know that it was a story in a book with that name? Well, she answered, "I read the book, and I read the story". Smart answer.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Alberto, your wife is obviously a Deep One.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Could it be that alienation (a theme throughout TL's work) is something experienced far more by men than women? You can see this in other primates; you'll often find stray males while females are always parts of groups.

Perhaps (statistically) females find alienation too horrible, even for horror, while males are built to experience a certain beauty in it as moving between groups contributes to the disbursement of our genes (it's also valuable for females, but only for genetic variety of mates - not for raising offspring).

I could imagine Ligotti's theme of ego loss being less interesting to women as well as it effectively negates emotions related to interpersonal relations (as there are no people as conceptually separate and emotionally distinct entities).

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Women are as capable of feelings of alienation as men. In fact, I daresay more so because so much of the world is geared to the employment and enjoyments of men. As for me personally, one of the reasons I enjoy Ligotti is for the feeling of alienation. Not to mention the bleak, black humor and the alliteration.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

To be clear, my suggested theory was not that women are less capable of feeling alienation, but rather that they on average found that emotion less appealing.

Ligotti's alienation in particular is an almost complete one and goes beyond Lovecraft or Sarte to the complete absence of anything that might be described as a positive interpersonal relationship. There is love lost, but not love. Friendship betrayed, but not friendship. The absence of respect, but not respect. etc. It's the negation of the interpersonal.

I suspect this is not true of horror authors more popular with women such as Stephen King. They portray such horrors as being the notable exceptions which the protagonists support each other in overcoming, while Liggoti portrays a universe where there is no help and no hope and even the idea of the existence of others or one's self is briefest of illusions in a bubbling chaos of pure information. Where Azathoth is not a monster which exists within the universe, but rather Azathoth is the universe.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Sorry if I was misunderstood. I really do prefer feelings of alienation over, say, Stephen King. And hopelessness. I really prefer to read things like that because it makes me feel understood. It is really how I see the world, where, as you say, Azathoh is the universe. Of course, I am an incredibly bleak pessimist, which annoys other people somewhat. But in general I prefer to deal with negative emotions and read authors who write about them.

I don't want to put down authors like Stephen King, as he is quite popular and must have an appeal for some people. But I prefer stories that linger in my brain and fester there, possibly later spewing out a black pus that overwhelms my small and finite brain.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Personally, I find the works of Stephen King VERY alienating. I fit into his universe not at all, in fact, I get the very clear feeling that the man would both fear and despise me should we ever meet. His universe is geared to the bog-standard "normal" man and woman. The plaid-shirt wearing, beer-drinking, tv watching crowd. I'd get lynched, or maybe burned at the stake were I so unfortunate as to appear there.

I, ladies and gentlemen, am a FREAK. Consequently I feel quite at home in Ligotti's universe.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

I once tried to read a Stephen King novel. One of the reasons I gave up on it was that I was unable identify with any of the characters. More than that -- I felt alienated from all of them.

I wouldn't be surprised if we were all freaks on this site.

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

I knew there was a reason I liked it here.
:D

Re: Ligotti: An author predominantly for men?
 

More worrying is the sort of characters I find myself sympathizing with.

Ditto