Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Decades ago, I really enjoyed Douglas E. Winter's highly literate criticism of horror and fantasy. I haven't heard anything about him for a long time. I believe he would have a fair amount of uncollected criticism, but at this point I could only guess where to look to track any of that down.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Not true. Joshi has always been highly esteem'd by other scholars and editors and readers of weird fiction. He remains our most important and influential critic and scholar.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

You know better than I.
After a prowl through of box of my 80s correspondence, I only found one letter with a disparaging comment.
You are right - I am wrong.

I was unaware that he encouraged followers to go after a critic.
In our current day and age, many find that acceptable.

I bought early issues of Joshi's "Lovecraft Studies" when they came out.
Also appreciate his corrected texts of HPL.
I am not a Cthulhu fanboy, though, and reading Mr Joshi's analyses of HPL were not really getting me where I needed to be along my path.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

I'm a Lovecraft fanboy, but not a Cthulhu fanboy.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Anyone managed to save his review of The Children of Gla'aki? It apparently annoyed buncha writers, to a point where Dark Regions guys asked him to remove it from his blog.That is one thing I really like about him, even if I often strongly disagree with him. He actually dares to be openly and sharply critical of modern weird fiction, whereas most other folks are seemingly impressed with every single release they read and behave as if every new collection and novel is a must read masterpiece.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

I know weird fiction is a bit of a niche but it is strange he's the only well known critic who will really take writers to task.
There certainly aren't fiction writers like Christopher Priest, Adam Roberts and Thomas Disch that science fiction has, who are very honest critics in their genre.

Have to admit I'm not that familiar with Jack Haringa.

I've never heard of Dirk Mosig. What was he like?

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

It's a tricky situation. On the one hand Joshi is simply one man giving his opinion and can say what he likes, and the gods only know how often I have complained on here about how easily overhyped these new Cthulhu books can be, but he is also a highly visible public figure in the world of supernatural/horror fiction and the closest we have to a revered Zordon word of authority (I can't count the amount of introductions of his that are on my shelves), so a bludgeon from him could perhaps kill an upcoming writer's career prospects stone dead in the internet age.

I think he should accept a certain degree of responsibility to be a fair and unbiased critic and only dismiss a book as absolutely awful if it is indeed that bad, rather than exaggerating for comedic or entertainment purposes, as often can be tempting when speaking one's mind. I have no idea whether Joshi rises to this task or not because I'm not interested in the type of book in question or criticism related to it, but I can understand why people would have a problem if his negative treatment is seen as hyperbolic considering he is the only literary critic most of the audience for a Mythos book will even be aware of.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Hell, I'd love to have Joshi savage my own work. I'd view it as a badge of honor! Lord knows he's at his most entertaining when in his negative mode.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

S. T. Joshi as an editor is unfailingly civil and insightful. I've found him to be quite urbane. I speak from experience.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

You think so? I don't think people who published a writer in the first place would stop working with that writer just because Joshi didn't like them. Especially given that the community doesn't always take his criticisms well in the first place.

He might be well known but I don't think his reviews have a big influence on what readers buy.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

There are no critics today who can make or break a writer's career. Not even mainstream critics, unless we're talking of pretentious 'literary' fiction. Poor sales and lack of interest by the dwindling public that still reads for pleasure are the killers. Good writers can die of neglect--not from critical attacks--while trash can sometimes rise to the top like cream.
The days of Edmund Wilson and H. L. Mencken are long gone.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Eh, I would say Joshi has incalculably more power than mainstream critics do within the field of small press horror fiction entirely because he is the sole dominant critic within this field, so instead of a diffuse aggregate of many reviewers, as would be the case with mainstream fiction, people will look at what S. T. Joshi says, and I absolutely believe that if he declared an unknown writer better than Lovecraft or declared an unknown writer an utterly talentless derivative hack that his review would likely influence sales and the chances of said writer's success within the field of small press horror fiction --James


Few readers even read critics, let alone take their judgments to heart. The influence of literary critics has dried up proportionately to the growing apathy of the general public. Would I even be influenced by a critic insisting so-and-so is a greater writer than Lovecraft? Not in this world of constant hype. When literature was regarded as a precious thing, the words of critics could have significant influence. Now, like everything else, that power has diminished greatly; and readers--those of us left--are more likely to check out a writer based on feedback from friends or comments on Facebook or in a forum. The power, the authority of a critic to make or break, just isn't that strong anymore.
I suppose the good thing is we're not as easily swayed by one man's opinion as previous generations were.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

I think that is true for general audiences, but in this particular specialist area Joshi has had a large and prominent role in shaping the tastes of a community. Mostly for the positive, too.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

James, I wholeheartedly agree. Joshi is a fine critic and a gentleman. And I owe him a debt.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Give me a day or two and I'll put something up.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

I love S.T. Joshi. His acerbic opinions and reviews too.

His cameo in Providence was such an unexpected and delightful surprise.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Mosig was the guy who first started ranting about the importance of Lovecraft's philosophy. Joshi followed him and carried on the philosophical aspects of Yog-Sothery.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Found this through Des' site

https://m.facebook.com/williemeikle/...33?pnref=story

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

As far as I'm concerned, the only Lovecraft criticism that was essential was by Fritz Leiber. It was the most insightful and the least pretentious. Joshi is good, sometimes spot on, but I have a special affinity for Leiber's handful of essays.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

What books are they in?

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Good luck, Robert, in finding them.

Two of the best, I believe, are in The Dark Brotherhood, an AH volume that you might get through inter-library loan (assuming that still exists).

Here are the titles of individual works, the first one part fiction:

"To Arkham and the Stars"

"A Literary Copernicus" (in AH Something About Cats, most valuable of all the essays.)

"Through Hyperspace with Brown Jenkin."

Some of these are available in inexpensive Leiber pbs but I haven't a clue as to titles.

Perhaps some Leiber enthusiast with an extensive collection of pbs can help you.

Good luck, my friend.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Title: A Literary Copernicus
Title: To Arkham and the Stars
Title: Through Hyperspace with Brown Jenkin

Here's the lists. The only book that seems to collect them all is Fritz Leiber and H. P. Lovecraft: Writers of the Dark.
Publication: Fritz Leiber and H. P. Lovecraft: Writers of the Dark
A fine looking book and still affordable.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

I copied Dirk Mosig's essay "Myth-Maker" from Whispers #9.
This was published in 1976.
Saved as pdf, hoisted to cloud.
Copy if interested -

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Very nice, Zaharoff. Thanks.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

I consider myself a fan of Joshi, but there are some areas in which I disagree with him profoundly, particularly his assessment of Robert E. Howard. I unashamedly love Howard's baroque heroic romances, and I think it's a shame they are still not taken seriously.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

This missed my attention due to that recent furor about Joshi and Barron (from his October 2 blog post):This is low even by his recent standards. Interestingly enough, he wasn't all that negative about Michael Griffin's collection that was published under this imprint, but it looks like he has decided to forget about that...

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Weird that Joshi's not going to be covering Mark Samuels in his treatise on 21st century horror...

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Samuels isn't nearly as widely read among weird fiction readers nowadays as you might think if this particular community is your only frame of reference in that matter.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Joshi's criticisms of Griffin's collection were fairly mild (well, by his standards) but I recall some people on social media went into vapors over it. IIRC Griffin himself took it in stride... was surprised that Joshi had even heard of him and seemed appreciative that he had took the time to read (and critique) it.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

I actually, I would go as far as saying that his review was positive as far as his treatment of modern weird fiction goes.
That makes his treatment of Griffin, and of so many other authors who publish under that imprint, as not being worthy of attention of "any sane and intelligent person", all the worse. Joshi comes off as someone who doesn't put too much value even into his own earlier professional judgment, as long as it doesn't fit his current needs.

In any case, given the almost-mainstream success that Word Horde has achieved with their releases like "The Fisherman", methinks that Joshi's prophecies about their imminent descent into oblivion don't have much to do with this reality.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Critics were never meant to be warm and fuzzy. Some critics are fair; some aren't. Jo Russ was one of my favorites and her brief reviews could be devastating. She even explained once why critics develop mean streaks. I like Joshi and think he tries to be fair but we all have our blind spots. But, in my view, much contemporary horror is indeed dreadful.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Eh, everyone makes mistakes. Joshi probably just forgot that Word Horde published the Griffin book.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Joshi's not covering Samuels in his forthcoming work on 21st century horror writers?
Surprising if true. I know Joshi regards Samuels' work quite highly.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

That is no excuse. Anyway, Orrin Grey's collection was also published by WH, and this is what Joshi wrote of him not that long ago:

Another thing that he choose to forget, as it doesn't fit the daily petty politics. BTW, looking at the Goodreads ratings for World Horde releases, that is damn lot of weird fiction readers who apparently don't count as intelligent or sane people...

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

In before the thread nuke.

Joshi has some lame opinions, but I don't see why anybody should be outraged about it. He's a solid critic of classic supernatural fiction, and while he is mostly off-base when it comes to the modern stuff in terms of who he overrates and underrates, I don't think many people listen to his recommendations about current writers.

I used to think he had more influence in this regard, but if you look at who he targets most and who sells the most then I don't think it quite adds up any more, so he's just some guy with an opinion and is entitled to it, even if the petty drama can make his reviews seem compromised.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Joshi wrote a foreword to Nicole Cushing's collection The Mirrors that is full of praise for her writing. (You can use Amazon's "Look Inside" feature to read that foreword.) Just the previous year, one of her novels had been published by Word Horde. Perhaps that novel is so bad that no "sane and intelligent" person would buy it, whereas the collection is so good that it warrants a foreword by S. T. himself. Or perhaps there is something other than level-headed critical judgment going on here.

I have several books by Joshi on my shelves, and I generally enjoy his writing. But sometimes he gets very carried away.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

I originally learned about Ligotti through Joshi, and I appreciate his role in helping Lovecraft obtain better literary recognition, but I never cared much for his literary criticism and now he's becoming increasingly vindictive and erratic.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

I remember Jo Russ in the 70's explaining why critics can appear so 'nasty' at times. Basically, she said, the ton of garbage they're forced to read would make a saint despair.

You know, there is a lot of crap out there.

I loved her short stories and her reviews even if I thought her politics were off the wall. "Picnic on Paradise" was fine. The Alyx stories were great. (If memory doesn't fail, Alyx got it on at one point with Fafhrd. If Leiber and Russ had a thing going, however brief, I wouldn't be surprised, I'd be delighted.)

No one out there like her today.

Re: S.T. Joshi says....
 

Pretty much. One tweet from someone like Barron will provide more visibility and sales for your book than a number of positive reviews from Joshi.

But, I'd say the same about any professional critic in this horror/weird niche, their reviews and coverage just don't count for much in the end.