Negativity defines me
 

I feel naturally inclined to always focus on the negatives, like it is who I truly am. It doesn't feel like a lie, instead it adds a strange sense of fullness to my life.

While on this forum, I look forward to reading the thread "Pessimistic Passage of the day" because I feel intrinsically connected to ideas of dread and bleakness. When I come across a negative, self-defeating quote or statement, I always feel more inclined to read it and ponder it. When faced with a positive comment, I usually avoid it and pass it off as "cheesy" or unhelpful and find it hard to trust those "happier" words.

Something of note is that I've been diagnosed with depression, among a few other things, and cannot remember a time I have not felt a natural
inclination to negativity and distrust. Any idea how to get out of this, how to not feel defined by my depression and negativity? Also, how many people on this forum feel a similar detachment from the world, like your true happiness will never be found among the simple, mindless actions of everyday life? Like maybe you were meant for another world.

Or maybe a more interesting question would be: Given the nature of Ligotti's literature and your interest therein, is there anyone on this forum that isn't depressed? Can you read depressing words, connect with them on a deep emotional level, yet still smile everyday and find some meaning in your life?

I always feel that without my introspection, I would be nothing. My sadness somehow liberates me from the ranks of the common man. Yet, all I gain from that mindset is a feeling of alienation and isolation.

I hope my words don't come across as whiny or pitiful, this is something that I struggle with everyday.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

...

Re: Negativity defines me
 

I think having a puppy helps as well

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2...0465944108.jpg

Re: Negativity defines me
 

I'm not sure that Archangelofruin is ready for puppies.

As someone who has suffered from long term depression, I've tried to channel negativity in more positive directions. One helpful area of positive negativity, I've found, is to listen to what I term "#### you" music. I have in mind songs with abrasive music and loutish lyrics. Amongst the finer exponents of "#### you" music were the Plumstead duo Shampoo. Check them out! Their mistresspiece, in this regard, may be the album issued in the UK as Girl Power or in Japan (with 3 extra tracks) as Shampoo or Nothing! The title song of Girl Power proclaims:

Wanna play with knives, wanna play with guns
Wanna smash you face up just for fun

The same album includes Bare Knuckle Girl and Zap Pow. The latter says:

Someone's gonna get it and they're gonna get it now

Most loutish of all, perhaps, is their early single Bouffant Headbutt which repeats:

You're ####ing dead

Copies of the single may, perhaps, be found on EBay -- the song is also included on the Japanese album of B-sides and rarities Delicious.

Shampoo's extremely rare (but excellent) final album Absolute Shampoo includes the pleasing song Sod the Neighbours.

Listening to negativity of this sort leaves me feeling a lot more positive and a lot more able to cope.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

I try to look on the brighter side of things. I'm in awe of the ongoing extraordinary growth in mathematical, scientific and medical knowledge, all proof of what the human mind can accomplish. I also believe that love, compassion, and altruism are every bit as real as cruelty, pain, and suffering.

I do feel detached from others at times. This is mostly because my interests are quite different from those of others I associate with on a daily basis. For instance, I've met very few people who share my love for weird fiction, and it's rare for me to meet anyone who knows who Thomas Ligotti is, let alone anyone who has read his works.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

When I was about 10, my brother told me a story, probably read somewhere, about certain people that lived longer but after 10,000 years or so they just vanished (or died). So, I innocently asked him about afterlife, we were both Christians, and he simply said that in Heaven we were going to live for thousands of years but at the end we will have to accept that everyone has to die. From that day on I cannot fit death in my life, I cannot stop wondering why I'm living if after all I'm going to die, and nobody is going to remember me. And if someone does, would it affect me when I'm dead? The main idea that rules my life is "death is the axis of life", which means that anything we do in life is ruled by death and not (unbelievably) by life. We all die, we see people dying, my father suffered an agonizing death for 8 months, my mother for 6 and a half, and what about me? Well, I expect either to commit suicide, to die agonizingly, or in an accident (one has to be too lucky to die while sleeping). When I see my kids, I cannot stop wondering that I maybe see them dying first. I cannot even imagine that. Anywhere I see I contemplate death. Death scares us, one can see that by the way we avoid talking about it in everyday life. No one can smile knowing that either today, tomorrow, sooner or later, there is a painful end and we cannot do anything to avoid it. That's why I'm more inclined to negativism.

My experience of being unemployed in Engineering for several years in my own country, before coming to Canada, told me that there are three things that, unless we decide to commit suicide, we cannot avoid: food, water, shelter. The rest is superfluous. I sold all my books, 450 at that time, to avoid the temptation of running away to a fantasy world, I lived as an outcast in my own land. It worked. It is still working, because I apply the same rules to my present life. Let's say that we quit our jobs, and run away from ever penny we own. First, that same day, probably at night, we are going to feel pain in our bellies, we will feel thirsty, and of course in need of shelter unless there is clear sky and we sleep on the street. When we live our lives by getting up in the morning to try to find food, with no money, and something to drink from a fountain in a park, we don't have time to think about death or being negative. Negativism arises from the fact that we have, we own, but want more. When one has to find food or die, probably one will choose not to die, mechanically. But when one has these three needs already satisfied, then one ponders about death, and purpose. Not only myself, but I saw many people in very dire situations, and they always ask for something, not for everything.

If negativity is a sickness you may be doing good consulting a psychologist or somebody with experience in the area. I don't think that words can relieve you of your pain if this is the case.

Did I find meaning in life? I think I already answer that question in Ligotti.net. No. Life is purposeless. That doesn't mean I cannot enjoy I cup of earlgrey tea, the breeze from the lake, the smiles of my kids, things like that. The fact that life has no meaning, and death awaits us, doesn't imply to live the rest of my life with a sad face. Give your life a purpose. There are many things you can enjoy, try to talk to illiterate people, they are so funny. If you keep being negative, you are forgetting that by having your three basic needs satisfied, anything else should make you feel a little bit better. Don't tell me that you don't like ice creams, for example? Find simple or rudimentary reasons to justify your life. It worked with me. Simply wander around the streets watching people go by. We are all in the same boat. Either happy or unhappy, we all die. So, isn't it better to die at least enjoying some of the moments that life gives us for free?

I took this picture the other day I enjoyed being alive that very minute. Or else, commit suicide and finish with it once and for all.

http://www.ligotti.net/picture.php?a...pictureid=1482

Re: Negativity defines me
 

I don't think that I've even once opened that thread. :confused:

Re: Negativity defines me
 

Maybe I'm an exception both in this thread and in life in general but it's been a long time since I've been depressed. That's not because I think that this world is all that great, but because of two things. First, at a very young age I learned not to expect very much from most people or situations. Even family and friends had their own agendas (often not realizing that they did). For a few years I was depressed but I got over it. The second thing was I eventually learned that depression was legitimate anger turned away from the proper target and directed at myself. This seems to be the norm form my personal experiences and from a lot of research in psychology. When I started getting angry at the real sources of my anger I stopped being depressed and soon some (not all) of my anger melted away. So what if this world sucks. That's exactly what I learned to expect. Why should it be otherwise? If I get depressed over something like this I'm still in the same horrid situation and, on top of that, I'm depressed. I decided to control myself. Maybe I don't control anything else but I choose not to be depressed. Nor do I let my anger dictate the way that I live. We are ourselves and our circumstances. Even though the circumstances aren't that great they are there. I live with them. I didn't ask to be dealt into this card game of life but I'm playing whether I want to or not. I simply see what cards have been dealt to me and make my first bet. What more can anyone do?

Re: Negativity defines me
 

Re: Negativity defines me
 

Thank you.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

Besides the wonderful video featuring Schopenhauer's views concerning noise, I'd like to add the following:

"The Sacred and the Human" by Roger Scruton

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/a...ls.php?id=9708

"Father Barron on the New Atheists"


"'Earth 2100': the Final Century of Civilization?"

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Ear...7697237&page=1

They offer a view that leads to a rich combination of hope and negativity, which is very much what takes place for most people who live in developing countries.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

Am I mistaken or does that Father Barron video employ some very odd (and contradictory) arguments? To paraphrase:

If we desire something, it must exist.
Since we desire God, God must exist.
That being so, the atheist's desire for no God is a delusion.

But, it would make as much sense to argue:

If we desire something, it must exist.
Since atheists desire a Godless universe, there must be a Godless universe.
That being so, Father Barron's desire for there to be a God is a delusion.

Of course, the major premise If we desire something, it must exist is nonsense.

:confused:

Re: Negativity defines me
 

My mother, someone with not much education according to modern standards, used to tell me that the world was going to end soon. She based her viewpoint in her Christian faith. Well, she died, and the world keeps rolling. Now, I hear the same nonsense again. The world ends by 2100...? What else...? Perhaps repent and pray the Lord...? The world is not going to end anytime soon, unless by cosmic cataclysm (comets, et cetera). In this case, it could be anytime, not exactly by 2100. Even if there is an accidental stupidity, someone with nukes so silly to use them, it is not going to be the end. Someone survives at the end, or another species can supersede us.

"Today's atheist polemics ignore the main insight of the anthropology of religion—that religion is not primarily about God, but about the human need for the sacred. As René Girard argues, religion is not the cause of violence, but the solution to it."
by Roger Scruton?????????????????????????????????

What else...???????? Religion is about God, because there is simply no "atheist religion". There is no "new atheists", or I don't feel myself different at all from atheists from past centuries. God is no solution, will never be a solution, because GOD DOES NOT EXIST. There is no God. Period. Where is God, may I know? Is God inside or outside our Universe? 1. Inside, then God is also part of the Universe and maybe created by it. 2. Outside, there is no "outside". In consequence, there is no God. If you seek salvation, redemption, hope, through God, you are lost. Better spit upon the name of God, whatever it is, and live your life the best way you can.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

I'm not so sure of it. I was "on the road" for some months, about five years ago... passing the nights in the railway stations, brooding about the opportunity to throw me under a train, or take one of them without ticket.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

I didn't get that part. What I got was that because life is absurd then there can't be a God. In which case, he was comparing atheists like Sartre and Camus with the feel-good message given by atheists today.

The unusual part takes place when Father Barron sees Sartre and Camus in light of the despair depicted in the OT, as if the norm of religious belief is not certainty. This can be seen in startling contrast to the feel-good atheist and Christian who are, ironically, both on the same side.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

It's a good one. You should check it out.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

Perhaps by "world" she meant her own. If that is so, then the nonsense can be seen in terms of an opposing view.

It was not my intention to depict the ABC documentary in a religious light: rather, to show that religion is based on the fact that humanity is helpless. We would like to imagine that things will be fine in the long run, but we are facing at least six problems that are creating what the documentary coined as a "perfect storm". Only two of those problems are mentioned. Here are, for me, the six:

1. a collapse of global capitalism, prompted by increasing money supply (much of which involves numbers in bank accounts), to fuel increasing production which involves increasing resource consumption, to meet increasing per capita demand and population;

2. peak oil, and also peak water and peak minerals;

3. global warming (or global dimming);

4. plant and animal die-offs (e.g., 75 to 90 percent drops in fish harvests, up to 90 percent of deep sea fishing areas now dead zones, deforestation and damage to coral reefs, etc.);

5. epidemics and possibly a pandemic (given virus vector increases due to global warming and human congestion and migration, mutation, overuse of various antibiotics, etc.); and

6. conflict (the twentieth century being one of the bloodiest in human history, twentyfold increase in small arms production worldwide, militarization in China, Russia, and other countries, invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, etc., future resource wars).

I don't think prayer or technology (or even rationalism) will save us from these long-term (and for some, immediate) problems. In which case, it is not only belief in God that is not a solution, but the very technology (primarily the use of oil which led to mass industry which in turn led to abundant food and medicine which in turn led ironically to a population boom and ecological damage) and even reason (at least based on free market capitalism and the "pursuit of happiness") that will soon do us in.

The best example I can think of is the U.S., which is one of the most advanced societies in the world in terms of a middle class lifestyle. It has 360 million people (around 5 percent of the world's population) but must consume around 20 million barrels of oil daily (around 25 percent of world production). In order for the current global population to have a similar middle class lifestyle, we'll need two to five earths, which we don't have. Unfortunately, increasing numbers of people worldwide (and I am one of them) would like to live a similar lifestyle, so it is assured that whatever demand destruction takes place in industrialized countries will be offset by increasing car and appliance sales in India, China, and in other countries. And since oil production likely peaked back in 2005, with the possibility that production in Cantarell might be declining a year from now followed by Ghawar, then a resource crunch may follow soon.

In which case, the "best way" one can live his own life during the next few years may involve learning to plant his own food, localization, and learning to survive in a de-industrialized world. Wouldn't it be ironic that in such a world we might see the return of religion?

This brings us to Scruton, whose argument implies that human beings are both rational and irrational. And because he lives in a world that I described above, then it is inevitable for religion to exist. In a way, we might say that what built new atheism is technology based on oil, but if oil and many other requirements (including credit) start declining....

Re: Negativity defines me
 

Could you please define "helpless" for me? What help do you expect? Perhaps from God...? I always have this irreverent idea (having seen religion from inside) that religion is based on a few people trying to brainwash millions. Imagine that Christianity is over, What are bishops, cardinals, fathers, et cetera, and mainly the Pope, going to do to make a living? Christianity is business. Even Mother Teresa said that she had doubts on the existence of God. Does anyone think that the Pope believes in God...?

A dream. It is the only economic system that still survives. What else would you suggest? Living in small communities like Mennonites? It could work in small communities, but not for 7 billion people. The other system, communism, I thought it was over. They had the same problem, excessive greed.

There is still oil for a hundred or so years. We are going to find more in the next decades, and beyond that, there is always solar power, nuclear power, the wind, coal, et cetera. And when all is exhausted, we may be found already a way to travel through the stars. If not, well, who knows.

Do you suggest to buy an extra bottle of water every day, just in case? I understand that water may be a problem soon, but wait, let's see. Don't panic.

Yes, and not many governments do something to finish with it. However, we survived the Ice Age, then we may survive the Hot Age as well.

Worse than AIDS...? They used to say that everyone was going to die from it. We may find a cure within 10 years.

Reason will prevail. As it always does.

Technology "is" maybe part of the solution. Without technology we wouldn't be talking over the internet. Too many Terminator-like films make people think that technology is our enemy, and it is in fact the opposite. How far advanced we are now compared to the Middle Ages?

Religion mainly exist because people feel lonely. People want to belong to a group where they can feel they are worth something. Someone else, on another thread, already showed that religion is directly linked to poverty, lack of education, crime, et cetera.

-----

But you don't answer my humble question, Where is God, is God inside or outside our Universe? God doesn't exist, therefore any solution that involves God is condemned to perish.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

My life is a hasty journey into darkness, Mr. Hetman, and for me the sun is closer to setting than it is to high noon, so some of these questions may be more relevant to me than to you. The outer form of Catholicism, which is the form of Christianity that I know, has nothing to do with religion. It is merely one of many bureaucracies in the world, and, like most other bureaucracies, the original purpose has gotten lost in the maze of bureaucrats.Christianity believes that God created this universe and everything in it for a purpose. We are part of the plan but we rebel against our Maker. Because of this rebellion God sent His only Son to become man, to die a horrible death and to rise from the dead to conquer death for us, since our rebellion had caused us to be lost. This is salvation.The religion you have been describing has little to do with these beliefs. If you believe the above statements then you are a Christian. If you don't, then you aren't. I mean nothing insulting but I am not sure which religion you don't believe in.The God of Christianity is so far beyond us that your questions about God being in or out of the universe are really without meaning. In other religions such as Gosticism the gods are more down to earth and understandable, but they are also much less powerful.I have no idea what I face when night finally falls and my life is over but I realize that the questions are much bigger than I can understand. Maybe death brings more understanding.As far as the questios that Mr. paeng so astutedly stated:we don't really have to worry about them. Either we will solve them or Nature will solve them for us, to our detriment. They is nothing new. I remember reading about a Roman stadium built about 2,000 years ago that, because of kickbacks and shoddy materials, it collapsed during a day of games. There wasn't even an earthquake as in China recently. And which Charles Dickens novel has the businessman ruined when his pyramid scheme came to light? I can't think of the title at the moment. These things have been going on for a long time.

Above the dark hills
In my eyes as the day ends,
The sun starts to set.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

I think that the average Christian is against paying expensive lawyers with money that comes from donations to defend bishops accused of sexual abuse. But, what could an average Christian do about this scandal? Basically, nothing more than complain and be upset.

http://www.ligotti.net/picture.php?a...pictureid=1485
Tell me, is this fellow Bernard Law a Christian or not? The answer is that, yes, he is. Don't you see him in the photograph in a Christian Church probably telling others to repent and come to the Lord?

This is the Christianity I was talking about.

Nietzsche said: "In reality there has been only one Christian, and he died on the Cross." I even disagree with him. Yes, I do. I believe that Jesus never existed. There is absolutely no proof that he did.

I could write pages and pages and pages and pages and pages and more pages with detailed examples of the so called Christianity that is gonna make you throw up from revulsion.

But I'm gonna waste my time according to Dunniger.

For those who believe, no explanation is necessary;
for those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice.

Joseph Dunninger

Re: Negativity defines me
 

I'm not Christian, but it has always seemed to me there are two dimensions of Christianity, and probably most other religions. There's a person's inner spiritual life which is not so easy to pin down. And then there's the public face composed of many individuals, the churches and associations, which mirror most other human groupings like this regardless of their beliefs.

While it's definitely prone to the same corruption and ideological abuses as any other idea, I don't quite understand the reason for zeroing in on Christianity. It hasn't been responsible in the really horrid atrocities our race has seen for centuries now. And even then, I think the Christians faced fierce competition from others like the Aztecs and Islam.

In my opinion, it seems the worst damage to befall us at the hands of an idea in the last century was not any religion at all. Rather, it was the atheistic and self-worshiping Communists, who continue to carry on their kingdoms of death in a few isolated spots today like North Korea. I expect that they'll hold the record for highest body count and most tortures for quite awhile. Seems to me historians who zero in on bad ideas run amok would do better to turn more attention to the Stalins, Maos, and Kim Jong Ils rather than languishing on the Popes. These gargoyles aren't even out of living memory yet, and still hard at work in the few corpse factories they have left.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

There is a book I would like to recommend "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor E. Frankl.

I found a paperback edition of this book in a box outside a decrepit house. The box had the following sign: "take one, free". Inside I found several books.

Viktor E. Frankl, professor of psychiatry and neurology, was 3 years at Auschwitz. He developed a theory called "logotherapy". He states that when one finds a purpose or meaning to one's life then it is possible to get over the existential vacuum.

Innocently, I think he is right. Basically I don't think it is a fight between religion and atheism , but a fight against a meaningless life. If someone finds meaning in religion, be happy. However, the mere existence of religion creates more problems than it really solves.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

He is helpless in the sense that whatever technology he employs to make his life better creates more problems. For example, it was the discovery of oil for commercial purposes in the nineteenth century that led to incredible advancements in food processing and the production of medicine, which in turn led to longer lifespans and lower infant mortality rates. But the latter led to a population boom of significant proportions that we now face as a major threat today. For more details, view


The same goes for the use of money, antibiotics, "mutually assured destruction," and many other artifacts of human civilizations. It is as if Laurie Garrett was right in arguing that scientists are now beginning to realize that it is not man but the lowly virus that rules the world.

I say this not to argue that religion will save us from such ills; rather, nothing will. Not surprisingly, this may have been one grim conclusion raised by Sartre and Camus, but not by "new atheists" for which if there is "probably" no God, then we should celebrate. Celebrate what?

Indeed, Christianity is business, but so is everything else.

The collapse of global capitalism is not a dream; rather, global capitalism is a dream. Take a look at what is happening right now. It is all casino capitalism, with over $1.6 quadrillion in derivatives, money made up of numbers in accounts created by private banks through private credit. All that is solid melts into air....

Living like Memmonites is not a solution: it is what we will be forced to do in time. Don't believe me? Two years ago, I warned others of a severe credit crunch that would take place by the middle of '08, and no one believed me (I ascertained that from warnings by Roubini, the IMF, and the EIU). They are not making fun of me now.

What's next? Once the prime lending rates start resetting and '06 and '07 loans start maturing.... We have "recovery" because the Dow components were modified and mark-to-market accounting has been employed, making it appear that many losses are now gains. Thirty years of cooking the books now bearing fruition....

Yes, there is more than enough oil, it's just that we'll need more than a barrel of oil to draw out a barrel of oil. Much of the "sweet" juice is probably now gone, as seen in two-thirds of oil-producing countries peaking. The Saudis give the same numbers every year and refuse any external audits, but some of the did talk to Businessweek a year ago and it turns out they estimate a 30 percent drop in "sweet" production from Ghawar by next year. And this doesn't count increasing demand per capita as seen in growing middle classes in India, China, and in other parts of the world.

As for buying an extra bottle of water, well, I don't mind others making fun of my warnings, as I'm used to it. In any event, the more most are unprepared, the greater the chances that I will survive.

When you say "we survive" this or that age, I suppose you mean a few surviving, right?

Yes, we may find a cure for AIDS. Then again, that dream's been around for twenty years, right? And then viruses start mutating once more....

Of course, reason will prevail! We just call it "realpolitik." And we saw the effects of that in fifty years of "cold war." For more details, read Chalmers Johnson's Blowback. For an teaser, read

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011015/johnson

Perhaps a better thing to do is not to compare our world with that of the Middle Ages but to what we expected throughout the twentieth century: isn't this supposed to be a space age? And yet two-thirds of the human race live on barely two dollars a day. If more do enter the middle class, then that will take a serious hit on resources. Just go back to what I said about the U.S. and oil consumption and think about it a second time: we'll need two to five years for that. China alone will within a decade require at least half of the world's resources just to maintain its growth rate.

I definitely agree with the view that religion is linked to poverty. I am writing to you from a Third World country where there is more than enough poverty and suffering. The problem is that affluence is built on technology and incredible consumption rates of resources, and this cannot be sustained. I'm sorry if I cannot give you all of the details as it is a very long story, but you might want to visit the Bartlett link above and this:

http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashc...r-17a-peak-oil

There are more, like www.dieoff.org , but I'll stop here. In any event, my point is that we are free to celebrate the demise of religion and the rise of atheism and cornucopianism, but I think the celebration will be short-lived.

Finally, to answer your question, I've no idea. All I know is that I agree with Father Barron: Sartre and Camus said the same thing about God as your did, but it gave them very little cause to celebrate. That was Father's point: what we usually assume to be realistic and sobering (i.e., the atheists' ad) was no different from that of a theist celebrating God's love and joyful times for all. And what we assume to be "delusional" and positive (i.e., Christianity) turns out to be the opposite, as seen in examples from the Old Testament and even your examples concerning Mother Teresa. In any event, I prefer Sartre and Camus' ad: Life is absurd.

This ties up readily with Roger Scruton's that human beings are both rational and irrational, and Bartlett's views, that we live in a no-win situation consisting of increasing demand from more people facing limited resources.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

I agree with Frankl's views, but regarding your last point, Niall Ferguson revealed in War of the World that much of the conflict throughout the twentienth century involved not religion but ethnicity and realpolitik. In fact, religion may have been only one of many tools employed in such conflict.

You might also want to look at Ferguson's other book Ascent of Money, which shows the ethereal global capitalist world that we live in. If you want a short version of it, take a look at the reverse pyramid chart at the bottom of this page:

http://www.runtogold.com/

Notice that most of our wealth consists not of physical assets or even precious metals or even paper bills and coins but numbers in accounts created by corporations in an endless show of side bets called "derivatives". If we consider Marxism and capitalism as secular religions then this may be our greatest religion yet: one built on a dream of prosperity fashion by the reason of salvific technology.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

It's possible that while some ruled over their kingdoms of death, others exported them:

www.nsarchive.org

My view is that we had fifty years of realpolitik driven by political and economic advantages from military powers worldwide using weaker nations as pawns. And the current economic crisis which some believe will have a very severe and long term impact on most coupled with problems concerning commodity supplies (as seen in peak oil production in two-thirds of oil-producing countries) and demand destruction may make things worse. Such conclusions were made recently not only by the IMF but also by the UN.

In any event, I hope you don't mind if I share such negative views as the thread calls for it, and I completely agree with what you said about Christianity. For me, religion has not been a dominant force during the twentieth century, except if I consider Marxism and capitalism as secular religions (which I do).

Re: Negativity defines me
 

There is something about calling something The Most IMPORTANT Video You'll Ever See that makes me NOT want to watch it. :mad:

Re: Negativity defines me
 

I am tempted to celebrate the death of god indeed (since the day I burned my bible when I was 15). Now, I am 41, and I wonder why someone would celebrate the death of something (which is god) that never existed. Why? I ask myself. Would I celebrate the death of the Unicorns (that also never existed) later?

Re: Negativity defines me
 

The last 50 centuries, not merely the 20th century, have been dominated by realpolitics. It was only in the 20th century that technology allowed the forces of nations and ideologies to become effective enough to be applied globally. I have long thought that our ideas of "problems" and "solutions" is fundamentally wrong since every so-called solution always brings its own set ofnew problems. In much of the world religion stopped being a political factor after WWI. The horrors ruined the credibility of religion in our political lives. The two domineering forces that took the place of religion were Fascism and Communism. Much of the century was torn by conflicts against these to ploitical religions and the aftermath left the survivors (there are never any winners in warfare) became morally bankrupt. In this century the Islamic world is starting to face the problems of balkanization that the rest of us have been struggling with for decades now. Every little ethnic group, nation, political niche and faction, religious pull-away group, etc. is trying to get what they think of their rights. In the United States there is no longer any country. There are only special interest groups competing for resources. The rest of the world appears to be in the same situation.

Re: Negativity defines me
 

I've several versions of the Bible, but I read and use events from it for several reasons, much like Nietzsche, Camus, and others. Nietzsche, for example, had a wonderful contradictory view of God. In some cases, he would imply that God is dead because we killed Him and in others he would refer to Christianity as an incredible burden. And then there's his "Zarathustra" poem, which reminds me of Strauss, Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals, and the incredible opening scene of Kubrick's 2001. It is as if religion is deeply ingrained in us the same way as Poe's nocturnal nightmares and unicorns. That, by the way, was part of Scruton's point.

Perhaps one interesting reason why I read the Bible, and the King James version in particular, is the brilliant use of English in the translation. Clearly, Shakespeare, a giant himself, lived among giants.

There are more reasons, of course, including my interest in medieval studies, archetypes, and mythology, the fact that the Bible is a formidable record of works from different genres (from lamentations to narratives to letters to military histories to erotic poems) from a timespan ranging hundreds of years and involving various cultures (Hebrew, Roman, Greek, Babylonian, Egyptian, etc.), and that, whether we like it or not, has had a significant impact on Western intellectual thought and art, whether it's Dante's magnificent Commedia or Bergman's Seventh Seal. Those who agree will be pleased to note, for example, that this is a triumvirate year for classical music listeners: it is the 250th death anniversary of Handel, the 200th death anniversary of Haydn, and the 200th birth anniversary of Mendelssohn. Messiah + The Creation + Elijah?! Bring it on, oratorio homeboys!

Finally, if there's one reason why I still read the Bible, it would be because of the topic of this thread: it is a very "negative" set of books. True, there are events where one can fly as if he is reading passages from Blake or Milton's Paradise Lost, but Father Barron is right: there are many events that modern readers used to Camus and Sartre will immediately recognize, from the story of Job to the Lamentations. And that creates a problem, for we usually assume that Christians are happy and optimistic because God will save them. But if we follow Nietzsche's lead and Father Barron's argument, then we realize that much of Christianity is based on despair, bleakness, and sadness. As much as we want to think that religion is typified by the wealthy in industrialized countries, we have to accept the fact that most people are poor and live in developing countries. Jesus in these countries is a little child with his mother Mary or the man on the Cross, and Christianity is not Easter but Good Friday and Black Saturday.

Should we be surprised that in such a world we are forced to look at what is beyond, whether it's the Bible or folk belief or contemporary short stories or Dante or Bergman? And if we assume that the very industrialization that has kept us afloat in a ambiotic fluid of secular humanism, one that was in some ways initiated by the mighty Petrarch and has lasted so long amidst growing prosperity and capitalization, will not last, then what happens next?

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I don't own a copy of the Bible, and haven't done so for more than twenty years. Quite a few versions passed through my hands, but failed to remain with me. At one stage, I had a feeling that the book didn't wish me to own it. The last copy I had was one I picked up in a junk shop in Leicester. It was the same edition as the one we'd had at school (with numerous line drawings, some which had fascinated me as a child). When I got it home, I found to my astonishment that it bore the stamp of the church my mother attended in Leigh-on-Sea, Essex. I felt that I couldn't retain it, and passed it on to my parents for return to its rightful owner. One odd aspect is that I knew the edition from school, rather than the church, and had no idea that the latter owned copies of this edition. Moreover, both church and school are about 130 miles from the junk shop in which I found the Bible. I suspect that Americans will think that 130 miles is no great distance. But, from an English perspective, it's a very long way. And that particular 130 miles has a very large population. Moreover, Leicester is not a town to much attract visitors. My reaction was to think "I'm not meant to keep a copy of the Bible", and I haven't messed with the book since. I'm very happy without a Bible, and am now pleased to have no copy.

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I personally love reading the Bible, but that does not mean i believe in everything written in it. It is like reading mythology to me.

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Oh, I spent 3 months in Leigh-on-Sea in 1998, as an au-pair girl! You used to live there?

Re: Negativity defines me
 

By any chance, and from your words, they may suggest that you also love reading mythology, Have you read "The Popol Vuh" (secret book of the Mayas), the Egyptian Book of The Dead, the Babylonian Job poem, Theogony by Hesiod, among others?

I find very suspicious the fact that someone like reading mythology but the only book always quoted is the bible. What about the other books? For example, the myth of Eden, and the Deluge, just copies of texts from "the Epic of Gilgamesh", and not the word from god. I always hear from people the same song, "I'm not religious, I'm not Christian, I'm nihilist, but I read the bible (sometimes)". What do they think I think when I heard that?

The problem with reading the bible as if it were another mythology book is that it is still active mythology. No one is going to think that because I read the Popol Vuh I believe on what it is written there, but if someone says: "I often read the bible". Why do I think that the person may believe on its words? And this is very dangerous, Why? Well, there is a case on the news nowadays in Canada about something that happened in the States: a madman killing a doctor for legally practicing abortion. You may guess that the fellow murderer is Christian, you would be right. Worst of all, thousand of letters of other Christians stand for him. I never forget the look of so many religious people (mostly Christians) when I say I'm not baptized, neither are my two kids. Or, when I say: "I don't believe in God", they look at me like saying "he is an idiot". Perhaps I am for another reason, but not for my atheism, which is shared by 5 % or more of 7 billion people.

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You ARE very sospicious! And yes, i've read The Popol Vuh, the Egyptian Book of The Dead, the Tibetan book of The Dead, and you forgot greek mythology, the Eddas and the Avesta and and and.
I just quoted the Bible because I thought that was the topic of the discussion.
I don't think religion or the Bible are dangerous. Ignorance and stupidity are, and I think that is what make people behave the way you describe. Give them another sacred book, any other belief and they'll act and think the same way.
The Bible itself is not dangerous.

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By the way I am not baptized either. And I live in Italy....you know...the Pope, all that bull####. How do you think they look at me? Big deal, i don't feel offended or frightened at all.

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I, too, love reading the Bible. Anyone interested in the evolution of the English language and its expressive possibilities cannot ignore the King James Bible. From a purely linguistic point of view, the Bible contains passages of dazzling poetic flight. The Book of Ruth, for example, features an intensity of prose that is breathtaking in scope: "And she said, I pray you, let me glean and gather after the reapers among the sheaves..." I feel sorry for any writer who would deny himself these poetic gems--besides which, the Bible constitutes an education in English grammar and syntax... and for those who are lacking in this area, the Bible is well worth studying.

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I read somewhere that the Bible, Shakespeare, and Lewis Carroll's Alice books are the most referenced books in Western Literature. A knowledge of these books can only enhance your reading experience.

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J. L. Borges also said, but I can't find the quote right now, that the mere idea that a Christian god is one and three at the same time was also part of a fantastic literature.