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-   -   Animosity is a Curious Animal Indeed (https://www.ligotti.net/showthread.php?t=3088)

Julian Karswell 07-09-2009 07:43 PM
Re: Animosity is a Curious Animal Indeed
 
Might I suggest a slight amendment to the rules (or at least a recommendation for good practise)?

I think it would be good form not to reference unpleasant or malicious comments posted elsewhere. This would minimise collateral damage to TLO in addition to sending out a clear signal that the TLO forum is independent.

We should be grateful that some of those who already post in a variety of other forums have stated that they will steer clear of the TLO lest arguments spill over into here and poison the atmosphere. I think this is a sensible decision which benefits everybody.

It's easy to forget that democracy and freedom of speech often needs to be fought for and then defended. Personally I've become an advocate for light-touch censorship in response to a) the internet and b) becoming a parent. I disagree strongly with Aleister Crowley's selfish doctrine that 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law'.

Many discussion forums become soured by conflict, immature moderation or dictatorial ownership. The TLO is in my opinion almost unique because it provides a liberal and broad church where all but the violent are welcome to worship. It also scores highly on the diversity of intellectual discussion, to say nothing of its peerless graphics, varied content and technological wizardry. What's more, the group proprietor doesn't breath down our necks seeking to influence opinion or encouraging us to buy his books. I think that sets a fine example not least because it encourages others to modestly reference their own work rather than aggressively market it.

For these reasons I think the discussion forum is definitely worth defending. If the cost of this fortification is a potential infringement of liberty in extreme cases, then so be it.

JK

The New Nonsense 07-09-2009 08:55 PM
Re: Animosity is a Curious Animal Indeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian Karswell (Post 25268)

It's easy to forget that democracy and freedom of speech often needs to be fought for and then defended. Personally I've become an advocate for light-touch censorship in response to a) the internet and b) becoming a parent. I disagree strongly with Aleister Crowley's selfish doctrine that 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law'.
Just a side note regarding Crowley's quote, as this is often a very misunderstood statement: I realize this is off topic, so I'll make it brief. From my understanding of Crowley and Thelemic beliefs, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" in no way means "Do whatever you want". It means follow your true Will, information only our 'higher self' is privy to. Crowley firmly believed that if everyone followed their true Will (which is far beyond material wants and needs), everyone's actions would work in perfect harmony to a higher order, much like a school of fish moving in concert and not bumping into one another. This isn't just my reading of his famous quote, but also many Crowley scholars and Thelemites. It's too bad Crowley had only limted success following his own ideals.

MorganScorpion 07-10-2009 05:16 AM
Re: Animosity is a Curious Animal Indeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The New Nonsense (Post 25271)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian Karswell (Post 25268)

It's easy to forget that democracy and freedom of speech often needs to be fought for and then defended. Personally I've become an advocate for light-touch censorship in response to a) the internet and b) becoming a parent. I disagree strongly with Aleister Crowley's selfish doctrine that 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law'.
Just a side note regarding Crowley's quote, as this is often a very misunderstood statement: I realize this is off topic, so I'll make it brief. From my understanding of Crowley and Thelemic beliefs, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" in no way means "Do whatever you want". It means follow your true Will, information only our 'higher self' is privy to. Crowley firmly believed that if everyone followed their true Will (which is far beyond material wants and needs), everyone's actions would work in perfect harmony to a higher order, much like a school of fish moving in concert and not bumping into one another. This isn't just my reading of his famous quote, but also many Crowley scholars and Thelemites. It's too bad Crowley had only limted success following his own ideals.
Crowley was distracted from his true will by drugs and alcohol. Not only that but, he was as mortal and fallible as the rest of us.

I like his other quote: "Every Man and Every Woman is a Star".

Evans 07-10-2009 06:56 AM
Re: Animosity is a Curious Animal Indeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian Karswell (Post 25268)
Might I suggest a slight amendment to the rules (or at least a recommendation for good practise)?

I think it would be good form not to reference unpleasant or malicious comments posted elsewhere. This would minimise collateral damage to TLO in addition to sending out a clear signal that the TLO forum is independent.
Better get this in while I can then. Thanks for alterting me to Ex Occidente Press via the whole tv group squabbles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The New Nonsense (Post 25271)
Just a side note regarding Crowley's quote, as this is often a very misunderstood statement: I realize this is off topic, so I'll make it brief. From my understanding of Crowley and Thelemic beliefs, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" in no way means "Do whatever you want". It means follow your true Will, information only our 'higher self' is privy to. Crowley firmly believed that if everyone followed their true Will (which is far beyond material wants and needs), everyone's actions would work in perfect harmony to a higher order, much like a school of fish moving in concert and not bumping into one another. This isn't just my reading of his famous quote, but also many Crowley scholars and Thelemites. It's too bad Crowley had only limted success following his own ideals.
Completely wrong place to ask but you haven't came across a certain Crowley quote regarding Arthur Machen's fiction and mystic truth have you?

mark_samuels 07-10-2009 08:33 AM
Re: Animosity is a Curious Animal Indeed
 
Didn't Crowley have a copy of Machen's House of Souls, which he'd annotated with all sorts of glowing praise? I don't know if some of these remarks have been published somewhere in the world of Crowleyiana.

Mark S.

Julian Karswell 07-10-2009 09:57 AM
Re: Animosity is a Curious Animal Indeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_samuels (Post 25290)
Didn't Crowley have a copy of Machen's House of Souls, which he'd annotated with all sorts of glowing praise? I don't know if some of these remarks have been published somewhere in the world of Crowleyiana.

Mark S.
Wow - that copy sounds like a book collector's dream.

MorganScorpion 07-10-2009 11:43 AM
Re: Animosity is a Curious Animal Indeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_samuels (Post 25290)
Didn't Crowley have a copy of Machen's House of Souls, which he'd annotated with all sorts of glowing praise? I don't know if some of these remarks have been published somewhere in the world of Crowleyiana.

Mark S.
You are going to hate me.

Yes he did. I've read it.

It was in the Courthauld Institute over 25 years ago. It holds a special collection once owned by a collector of occult books. You needed to make a special application, and you were not allowed to copy any passages. A librarian stayed in attendance and made sure you weren't copying it by frequently checking your notes. As I recall there were only about a dozen annotations, and Crowley's writing was difficult to read.

It detailed a series of Magickal experiments with Soror something or other and Soror Aegnis. Possibly coded sex-magic.

Just because Machen did not think highly of Magickal societies did not mean he didn't believe in Magick. He just thought that the societies had gotten it wrong. He, A E Waite and his two assistants however, had gotten it right.

He said.

Evans 07-10-2009 12:18 PM
Re: Animosity is a Curious Animal Indeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorganScorpion (Post 25297)
It was in the Courthauld Institute over 25 years ago. It holds a special collection once owned by a collector of occult books. You needed to make a special application, and you were not allowed to copy any passages. A librarian stayed in attendance and made sure you weren't copying it by frequently checking your notes. As I recall there were only about a dozen annotations, and Crowley's writing was difficult to read.
Thanks for that Morgan, its really interesting.
Out of interest why were they so against any copying of certain passages? If there were so few annotations one would think several people could quite easily memorise a set number each and make copies later.

MorganScorpion 07-10-2009 01:41 PM
Re: Animosity is a Curious Animal Indeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evans (Post 25299)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorganScorpion (Post 25297)
It was in the Courthauld Institute over 25 years ago. It holds a special collection once owned by a collector of occult books. You needed to make a special application, and you were not allowed to copy any passages. A librarian stayed in attendance and made sure you weren't copying it by frequently checking your notes. As I recall there were only about a dozen annotations, and Crowley's writing was difficult to read.
Thanks for that Morgan, its really interesting.
Out of interest why were they so against any copying of certain passages? If there were so few annotations one would think several people could quite easily memorise a set number each and make copies later.
I have no idea why. It was one of the conditions that the original donor made when giving them this collection. I can't remember the name of the donor, sorry; but the collection was catalogued under his name.

Evans 07-10-2009 02:15 PM
Re: Animosity is a Curious Animal Indeed
 
@Julian: In slight contradiction to your post, I'm sorry if I offended you in that alt.cthulhu discussion thread. It certainly wasn't my intention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorganScorpion (Post 25301)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evans (Post 25299)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorganScorpion (Post 25297)
It was in the Courthauld Institute over 25 years ago. It holds a special collection once owned by a collector of occult books. You needed to make a special application, and you were not allowed to copy any passages. A librarian stayed in attendance and made sure you weren't copying it by frequently checking your notes. As I recall there were only about a dozen annotations, and Crowley's writing was difficult to read.
Thanks for that Morgan, its really interesting.
Out of interest why were they so against any copying of certain passages? If there were so few annotations one would think several people could quite easily memorise a set number each and make copies later.
I have no idea why. It was one of the conditions that the original donor made when giving them this collection. I can't remember the name of the donor, sorry; but the collection was catalogued under his name.
Ahh ok thank you.


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