THE NIGHTMARE NETWORK - Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’

THE NIGHTMARE NETWORK (https://www.ligotti.net/index.php)

- Website News (https://www.ligotti.net/forumdisplay.php?f=26)

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Locrian (Post 100014)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speaking Mute (Post 100013)

I'm still mystified why everyone see the ending as redemptive or signalling a major shift in Rust's outlook.

"The light is winning."

"This reminds me of people who complain that Seven hedged at the end because of Sommerset's final line; a few statements shouldn't overrule the greater narrative."

Not to be sharp, but why bother responding if you're not actually responding?

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’

" I am not saying that cinema needs to completely excoriate the three necessities of popular films (breasts, robots and explosions), but I wish that one large studio would take a leap of faith and end a single piece honestly. Just throw us a bone."

How about No Country For Old Men ?

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speaking Mute (Post 100019)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Locrian (Post 100014)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speaking Mute (Post 100013)

I'm still mystified why everyone see the ending as redemptive or signalling a major shift in Rust's outlook.

"The light is winning."

I've never seen Seven, so I instinctively skipped over that bit. I just did it again as well.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynothoglys (Post 100018)

I think a conversation between Ligotti and Pizzolatto might go something like the following exchange from Amadeus with Ligotti as Mozart and Pizzolatto as Salieri:

Quote:

Mozart: [of his great opera, "Figaro"] Nine performances! Nine, that's all it's had! And withdrawn!
Salieri: I know, I know, it's outrageous. Still, if the public doesn't like one's work, one has to accept the fact gracefully.
Mozart: But what is it that they don't like?
Salieri: I can speak for the Emperor. You make too many demands on the royal ear. The poor man can't concentrate for more than an hour... you gave him four.
Mozart: What did you think of it yourself? Did you like it at all?
Salieri: I thought it was marvelous.
Mozart: Of course! It's the best opera yet written, I know it... why didn't they come?
Salieri: I think you overestimate our dear Viennese, my friend. You know you didn't even give them a good *bang* at the end of songs, to let them know when to clap?
Mozart: I know, I know... maybe you should give me some lessons in that.

Pizzolatto took enough from the works of Chambers and Ligotti to make his series nihilist-chic without initially attributing inspiration to TL; stuck to those principles to some degree, to the apprehensive approval of fans of both weird fiction and Ligotti; then veered off course like some cinematic kamikaze in the last episodes, eventually kowtowing to popular expectations.

Perhaps this pervasive thirst for an optimistic denouement is why a The Avengers grossed over $1.5 billion and The White Ribbon barely recouped its $18 million production cost.

As far as Seven is concerned, I find it very hard to believe that Somerset would morph into some optimistically cooing crime-fighter after finding his partner’s wife’s head in a box, especially given the fact that he was so close with her. In my opinion, The Pledge handled the overworked police officer angle with much more humanity, sincerity and realism.

I suppose I take this all to heart because I and, I suspect, many others feel insulted by this ever predictable shift in mood towards the close of a piece, whether opera, theater, television or film. We are consistently lured into viewing these pieces under false pretense, namely that the characters are going to be honest with themselves, not with themselves as seen through the public eye.

But if this happened, if the pessimists won even once, the studios could not pander their latest creation to the dregs with thick wallets and thicker skulls.

I am not saying that cinema needs to completely excoriate the three necessities of popular films (breasts, robots and explosions), but I wish that one large studio would take a leap of faith and end a single piece honestly. Just throw us a bone.

I suspect PIzzolatto is being disingenuous regarding his opinion of Chambers et al more than exploiting them for ideas. If he was scratching the surface of Weird he probably would have stopped at Lovecraft (or even Poe - not to get Druidic fired up on The Following again :) ). Given that many critics attacked the show from the onset for it's "crossover" into the horror genre (I fail to see why TD isn't Horror - but that's off topic), and he's under fire for the show's supposed misogyny, he's probably ditching horror to save literary face. Cowardly, certainly, but TD did too well so far as creepiness goes for him not to respect horror.

I can't compare the The Pledge to Seven, but I'll take that as a recommendation. I left TD with the impression that Rust was more overtly suicidal than before. The "light is winning" angle struck me as rather desperate chatter between Marty and Rust.

So far as Hollywood trick goes, I think Rust only survived so that he can come back for another round.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Locrian (Post 100021)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speaking Mute (Post 100019)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Locrian (Post 100014)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speaking Mute (Post 100013)

I'm still mystified why everyone see the ending as redemptive or signalling a major shift in Rust's outlook.

"The light is winning."

I've never seen Seven, so I instinctively skipped over that bit. I just did it again as well.

The question makes sense without watching Seven - did True Detective actually leave off in any happy place? In the midst of the "light is winning" dialogue, Rust himself pointed out that it was fairly pointless catching Errol, because others were obviously involved. Marty's response diverted the question's punch ("we got our man.") rather than veering into any actual optimism (think of how many we people we saved by finally taking Errol out etc.).

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speaking Mute (Post 100023)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Locrian (Post 100021)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speaking Mute (Post 100019)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Locrian (Post 100014)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speaking Mute (Post 100013)

I'm still mystified why everyone see the ending as redemptive or signalling a major shift in Rust's outlook.

"The light is winning."

I've never seen Seven, so I instinctively skipped over that bit. I just did it again as well.

Cohle is unequivocally a saved man. He has been redeemed from his pessimism by a Near Death Experience.

In the words of another viewer of the show:

Quote:

I wonder if anyone has noticed that TD turned out to be a supernatural story after all, despite Pizzolatto’s gibbering that it isn’t. What could have been more supernatural than Rust Cohle’s near-death vision, which he clearly embraces, of an afterlife in which he’ll be reunited with his daughter, father, and maybe a pet he had as a kid. What a disgusting mockery of the pain of loss in human life. Geez, how could he be the nihilistic guy he seemed in the first two episodes, the ones that viewers said they liked best, the ones which NP says were rewritten after writing of the last six episodes.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’

Quote:

In my opinion, The Pledge handled the overworked police officer angle with much more humanity, sincerity and realism. -- Cynothoglys

I agree, cynothoglys.

Pizzolatto may have an inflated image of himself as an artist but he did do a bang-up job with TD despite the predictable ending. But he's no Durrenmatt. He doesn't have the seriousness of purpose to create novels like "The Pledge" or "The Execution of Justice." Durrenmatt's vision was as dark as any I've encountered; and the problem in filming his work is similar to the problems in filming Lovecraft. In particular, conveying the terrible sense of Life as an Evil Fairy Tale that comes across so powerfully in his writing. His Giants, Dwarfs, Dragons (the Nazi surgeon/torturer who owns a clinic for the wealthy that is described more like a terrifying castle), all act out their parts in a haunted landscape of a world that "invokes the supernatural without manifesting it."

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynothoglys (Post 100018)

I suppose I take this all to heart because I and, I suspect, many others feel insulted by this ever predictable shift in mood towards the close of a piece, whether opera, theater, television or film. We are consistently lured into viewing these pieces under false pretense, namely that the characters are going to be honest with themselves, not with themselves as seen through the public eye.

After careful consideration, it seems that the biggest problem is, at least to me, not so much Rust's redemption (which, as has been mentioned several times in this thread, is kinda to be expected from what is ultimately a mainstream work of fiction) but these statements from NP that basically say "yeah, you know what, I don't really care for weird fiction. You keep your Chambers and Lovecraft and what have you, I'm through with it." That's what's leaving a bitter taste in my mouth despite the series' achievements.

Incidentally, Alan Moore wrote a short story (later adapted into a comic) titled "The Courtyard" which, I think, is what at one point I expected TD to be. Similar scenario: procedural revolving about ritual murder. But this one delves deeper into mythos territory as the investigation progresses and lands into a pretty bleak and terrifying conclusion.

Problem is that, well, anyone who's read at least a couple mythos stories can tell where things are headed. The story is packed with references and in-jokes, and the "protagonist gets a glimpse behind the curtains and goes mad and/or joins the cult" ending is pretty much a standard for these stories. So there won't be many surprises, but still an enjoyable read.

And there's another comic I was reading, Scars by Warren Ellis (and illustrated by the same guy who did The Courtyard for Moore), which I think could easily be an upcoming TD season. Again about murder and a detective who gets obsessed with the case because he can't stand to live in a world where a schoolgirl can be chopped up into meat and packed into boxes and nobody else can do anything about it. Unlike Courtyard, this one is entirely rooted in the real world, so it plays with different kinds of fear.

So, I guess that's two alternatives for anyone who wants a fix after TD's finale.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’

I argue that Pizzolatto could've produced a fair-handed, ambivalent ending to the show. The redemption of Cohle rubbed me the wrong way.

I agree with a friend on how the show should've ended:

Quote:

with that last shot of the tree after the TAXI DRIVER-esque "god's eye" montage of all the sites we've seen throughout the season. That tree, unadorned by horrors, would have struck the perfect balance of what I'd thought the show was going for: Existence will keep spinning, enduring, beyond the good and evil of humanity, that even the scenes of the worst terrors, and the memories that accompany them, can't outlast the indifferent majesty of time and life.

For my part, that montage reminded me of the end of HALLOWEEN--letting us know that the Real Horror could not be contained in one place. It could be ANYwhere. It's an intrinsic part of the landscape and the people who live within it.

In any case, the directing--along with the acting, designwork, and score--was astonishing.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’

Dashiell Hammett had a great quote about mystery novels as well.

Quote:

To swipe the immortal lines uttered by Sam Spade in The Maltese Falcon, a great mystery should take "the lid off life and let [you] look at the works.