Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I think Pizzolatto deserves the benefit of the doubt on this point. Aside from the other reasons I've already stated, he mentioned numerous authors early on, including Lovecraft and Barron. He's also stated that he strongly disagrees with Ligotti's worldview. If he was only using TCATHR for some quick talking points to express Cohle's worldview, then his omission could simply be that he personally didn't think Ligotti was that important in the overall scope of True Detective. This also jibe's with him sharing Laird Barron's assessment of Ligotti.

Leeway should also be granted for using non-fiction in a fictional work. If True Detective, for example, featured a secret society called "The Esoteric Cabaret" that targeted artists, then not citing Ligotti would be a serious ethical failing; philosophy and politics, on the other hand, occupies a far more ambiguous space in literature. Otherwise we'd owe George W. Bush credit for the dialogue of dozen's of movie villains during the 00's.

Here our disagreement could ultimately rest on personal taste. Beyond this, I can only point out that Cohle's philosophizing was met with mixed reviews, and that this negative response wasn't merely people put off by a bleak viewpoint. For myself, the most potent expression of Rust's personal philosophy came out when he admitted he was happy that his daughter died young; so far as I am aware, this exchange was entirely Pizzolatto's own writing - although the ideas he expressed could have been taken from the exact passage of "On the Vanity of Existence" I quoted above.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Yes, Pizzolatto mentioned other writers and thinkers as influences, but he pointedly did NOT mention Ligotti until Michael Calia of the WSJ literally compared and contrasted Rust's establishing dialogue with passages from TCATHR. The evidence was undeniable, including some word for word sentences Nic P's show and TCATHR shared in common.

It was only after he started getting push back and talk of plagiarism started brewing that Nic Pizzolatto reached out to Mr. Calia and asked for an interview in which he spilled the beans on Ligotti's "influence" on his work.

He specifically stated that he is "about as far from a nihilist as you can get, though at times my personal philosophy would be deemed pessimistic." I could say the same about myself. And, in fact, I wouldn't call Ligotti a nihilist either, but that's a subject for another conversation...

Instead, though--as we know--Pizzolatto paraphrased and directly quoted from TCATHR. No other author had the profound influence on TD that Ligotti did. And--even more importantly--the words and ideas he lifted from Ligotti were used in the first two episodes of TD and were the ESTABLISHING monologues for Rust's character. They're the ones that HBO swooned over when he showed them the first two scripts (which got him the job). They're the ones that the viewing audience at large freaked out over.

He may have mentioned Barron and (obliquely) Lovecraft, but I didn't see TD with much in common with either author except in Barron's case the protagonists' were both chronic substance abusers, one of which hallucinates a lot.

But TCATHR is, by Pizzolatto's own admission, much more than a mere expression of philosophy. "For me as a reader, it was less impactful as philosophy than as one writer’s ultimate confessional: an absolute horror story, where the self is the monster."

I can requote all the passages and ideas Pizzolatto pulled straight from TCATHR if you'd like. Using another writers words and ideas without immense adaptation and/or attribution is verboten. Ask any professional writer.

No, those Ligotti cribbed scenes were met with overwhelmingly positive reviews throughout the media with a tiny handful of naysayers. Critics and audience members alike were blown away and delighted, particularly with Cohle's first series of monologues when Marty asks him if he's a Christian in that first episode. You know--the scene in which Cohle might as well be setting out Ligotti's thesis in CATHR point by point?

If you search on youtube for "cohle hart car" it's the very first hit. Plug in "true detective" and it's one of the very first clips too. That's little wonder since it's arguably the most famous and certainly the most iconic scene in the show.

Give it another look:


Nope. That one's central thesis is lifted from CATHR as well:

Even if calling human beings "meat" is nothing extraordinarily rare, surely calling the human condition a "thresher" is highly unusual and peculiar to Ligotti's cited work above.

And, of course, the specific line from that monologue (which is the hub of it) paraphrases Ligotti's own expressions almost word for word.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Take away Rust's specifically Ligottian worldview, and TRUE DETECTIVE becomes like practically any other buddy cop procedural with a King in Yellow subplot that never really pays off tacked on.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

To be honest, I consider TCATHR much more powerful than any of his prose. I am probably one of only few people on this forum that never really got into his fiction, but I have only read TG and parts of MWISNYD, because those are the only ones available to me. I'm planning on re-reading them, because TCATHR will certainly help me understand them a little better, but I must confess that I consider Ligotti to be a much better writer of non-fiction than of fiction.

However, considering that even TCATHR is out of print, how would people go about reading more of what he's written? I think the fact that Ligotti is simply not available to people is a serious problem, especially now that he has risen to unprecedented publicity. Even NP mentioned that he couldn't find his works, and to him, they bascially were research for a high-profile job!

There is an almost complete collection of his work floating around on the Internet, but that is of course not a real alternative. The fact that fans had to compile and publish that themselves is a damn shame.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I feel all Ligotti's work, that many perceive variously to be separate fiction OR separate non-fiction, as a single accreting magnum-opus of "synchronised shards of random truth and fiction" - one that appeals to me a lot but not with any perceived label.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

You're absolutely right. Unless you want to read his work via a Kindle or a Kindle web reader/app, you're going to shell out big bucks at this point. Now would be time for a mass Ligotti book reprint (or--better yet--a Complete Ligotti [to date] Collection).

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

That's a fine observation, Des, and one with which I concur.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Good points, Cynothoglys. I shouldn't have used the word "mass" as I wasn't referring to the big publishing shops. I think small press reprints would be just the thing right now and would be more than sustainable for, say, Subterranean Press. Hell, even a 500 print reprint of some of Ligotti's works would be welcome (and would--I think--sell out rather quickly).

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I should mention that I am not an American citizen, but you have made some valid points. Also, I want to point out that my knowledge concerning the American book publishing system is very limited, so I might be out of my depth here.

However, I do not look at the subject from a collector's angle. I don't even have to read every word he's written, I just want people to enjoy Ligotti's art and maybe delve into his philosophy, and a cheaper omnibus edition would help people to take that first step. From my experience, e-books have not gained enough traction for people to make a blind buy, at least not on a larger scale that would make a financial difference. There is a lot of people like me, however, who gladly spent 10 bucks on TG in a paperback edition, but from what I've read, that book does not even comprise Ligotti's best material. And even TG seems to be out of stock now.

Also, we should not forget that Stephen King sells millions because, among other aspects, one can get his books for under 10 bucks; and of course, these editions are pretty cheaply made. However, you insinuated that the art suffers from poor presentation, but I disagree with that to be honest. That is an argument a publishing house would make to sell a Grimscribe edition for 40 bucks, because it knows there are people willing to pay for it.

Moreover, you can publish a few hundred pages of fiction for 20 bucks and do the art justice. Just look at the 2011 Barnes&Noble Edition of Lovecraft! Where I live, you can get it for under 20 bucks and it is simply marvelous. Of course, the publisher did not have to pay for the publishing rights, but the 1000 pages, harcover binding, cover image and paper quality are still costly, and yet they did it (by selling their souls I suppose).

Your argument about the low number of sold editions is of course valid. However, that argument goes both ways: Publishers don't print the books, so people can't buy them. And because seemingly nobody wants to buy them, they do not get published. Right now would be the best time to test how many people are interested in "pessimism without compromise". And even if people disregard his philosophy, they could still enjoy his prose (like so many others seem to do) and it would still send money his way.

Ligotti will certainly never appeal to a mass market, but horror rarely does. There are not a lot of Stephen Kings, and yet writers of weird fiction have been able to sustain themselves and find an audience. I think preserving Ligotti as "Horror's best-kept secret" is somewhat noble, but as a fan and admirer, I think it leaves much to be desired.


EDIT: You mention that you spent a lot of money on his works, but did Ligotti ever receive that money? Or did you give it to a private seller, who was fortunate enough to make a profit by selling the books to you? As far as I can see, most of the early works are simply not available as new editions at all, regardless of what price one is willing to pay.