Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Much better article and response to that newyorker drone :
Is Flavorwire

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Regarding the New Yorker review: There should always be room for a dissenting voice. The way the final two episodes unfold will tell us if she’s right or has been simply taken in by her own assumptions of the show’s predictability. As Mads wrote, one could easily have predicted what drove the two detectives apart from early on, but I tended to give TD the benefit of the doubt. I just hoped it wasn’t heading for well-mapped territory. In this instance, I was wrong. I’m hoping the conclusion will deliver but my faith has been shaken.

As for judging works of art by political standards, it happens all the time. I find it deeply regrettable. In the 50’s and 60’s Lovecraft’s “The Horror at Red Hook” was regarded quite highly. It appeared in several anthologies and was praised for its unflinching portrait of New York’s dark side. Now Joshi (among others) faults the story as utterly dreadful, Herbert West style dreadful, and sounds just a touch hysterical in the process. Political Correctness has become the yardstick by which today’s critics, when in doubt, gauge the worth of works. The racism is regrettable but as Fritz Leiber pointed out the horror story, unlike science fiction, has a xenophobic little heart; and, given the time when the story was written plus Lovecraft’s disastrous New York exile, the racial element was probably unavoidable. (Doesn’t HPL say somewhere in the story “the dregs of all races” or something like that? I’ll have to check since that would presumably include the white race as well). The story itself has some extremely impressive atmosphere and many fine moments, not the least being a brilliant opening description of an agoraphobic attack.
But back to TD. Two more episodes to go and we’ll see if our faith has been misplaced…or rewarded.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Predictability seems to be the complaint. My feeling is that the story so far has done enough to incriminate Tuttle that it will be logically problematic if he wasn't somehow involved in the murders - but a lot of people have already written the show off it ends up there because it's too predictable to have Evangelical right-wingers outed as sadistic perverts (this amuses to me no end). One of the best commentaries I've read on the show - which, unfortunately, I can't remember where I read or who it was written by - pointed out that the story's predictability was an integral part of its theme: things turn out bad again and again for the same reasons, people and circumstances do not change, and nothing can be done about it. This interpretation draws the Eternal Recurrence aspect in quite nicely, and renders the show a genuine work of cosmic horror, Yellow King or not.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I wish I could find said review - it was a nice salvo against Emily Nussbaum, among others.

Nussbaum wrote a hack review so far as I'm concerned. Taken by itself it's innocuous enough, but it's part of a larger trend to shout racism/misogyny at just about any facet of popular culture that gets praised for sophistication. Compare the review to similar complaints raised about Game of Thrones or Lorde's "Royals", and note Malone's point regards Nussbaum's inconsistent standards. I believe the issue is that cultural critics no longer feel comfortable appealing to any sort of broader aesthetics to judge artwork, yet they know their job security is fairly bleak if they're just spouting their own opinions - so they have to bash art on moral/ethical grounds if it rubs them the wrong way.

I've said this before, but I'm personally fed up with the Lovecraft Racism/Misogyny angle as well. Xenophobia shows up in Lovecraft's work - The Horror at Red Hook being the worse offender by far - but its more silly than offensive by modern standards and irrelevant to any current racial issues. Goofy stereotypes about hot-blooded Spaniards, superstitious Italians, and nasty French Canadians aren't swelling the US prison population or filling graves in Florida. We've genuinely become "color blind" enough to European Ethnicity that we needn't constantly censure Lovecraft lest he lead the impressionable youth astray.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I'm afraid you misunderstood me, Speaking Mute. The Horror at Red Hook is one of my favorite Lovecraft stories; and I've always been irritated by critics like Joshi who disregard it so contemptuously...

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I'm not sure how the portion about Lovecraft came across as a disagreement; that wasn't the intention.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I don't think most viewers realize the actual extent of the bleakness (by "most viewers", I don't mean the people on this thread). The Sopranos (though the Shield in my opinion was much more bleak and more of a predecessor to "True Detective") always hinted at a "Big Nothing", but David Chase put an anodyne on it in one way or another. This series does not. It is the culmination of everything the darker HBO series have hinted at and been afraid to actually come and say.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

After making some unflattering remarks regarding the TV show, “The Following”, I found myself reflecting that these days are a little special for lovers of traditional horror fiction; and the Special comes in two time honored flavors: Good and Bad.

On one hand, we have True Detective giving shout outs to Lovecraft, Ligotti, Chambers and Barron; and on the other, we have the hopelessly dreadful “The Following” blaspheming the memory of Edgar Poe by the absurdity of a serial killer college professor, obsessed by Edgar’s works, and leading a cult dedicated to nasty Poe-esque murders. (The cult seems to have more people than the whole state of Rhode Island).

Two detective shows, as far apart in quality as it can get, but both centering on some of the greatest iconic figures of supernatural literature.

Man, that’s a weird tale for you.

As for me, I’m trying to pitch something new and fresh to the suits:
See this body builder (who is really a psycho killer) is in a car crash and due to resultant brain damage believes he’s Robert E. Howard and this big guy starts a gory new career of evil with a broadsword. Only one man can stop him: This black drug-addled horror writer who suffers Multiple Personality Disorder and believes he’s really H. P. Lovecraft…

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Just to clarify (though I don't think that was what you meant, Speaking Mute), I wasn't criticising the show (especially when I'm still at episode 4). In general, I think predictability can be aesthetically satisfying in certain ways, when it is convincingly transformed into inevitability, which I think is the overall case in case of True Detective (and in many other ways); watching the inevitable and ritualistic unfold is, after all, one of the many elements present at the core of the horror narrative (in the broadest possible sense).

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

...But then it becomes an odd couple buddy film.

You made me fall on the floor holding my sides.

I just watched the first episode of TD and one word: "Sticks".

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I agree! That's how I felt when I first saw The Blair Witch Project. Wagner's story is a little classic; he apparently was the first writer to really wonder what all those sticks lashed together and seen in so many Lee Brown Coye illustrations, really meant.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

More praise - this time from The Quietus:
http://thequietus.com/articles/14610...uction-article

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Even though I have only seen random clips on the interwebs, I must say McConaughey's acting is absolutely brilliant. I can't remember the last time I was so mesmerized by an actor's portrayal of a character. Too bad I'm too broke at the moment to check the series out.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

McConaughey is turning out to be a better actor than I'd ever anticipated him being. "Frailty" was when I first caught the scope of his talent, but it didn't get much of a distribution. Great movie based on a novel by Charles Brockden Brown which is excruciatingly monotonous but effective

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I'm sure the majority of you are already familiar with all of the King in Yellow fiction out there, but Joe Pulver and I had a video interview where he talks about all things KiY, especially to clear up misconceptions that were stated in many of the big articles out there.

The Arkham Digest: Interview: Joe Pulver talks The King in Yellow

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Episode 7. A good episode. It's back on the rails again. I don't want to underestimate Pizzolatto, but I'll be amazed when (if?) they tie this up satisfactorily in an hour long episode.
I'm hoping they pull it off.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Cohle is without doubt a darkly depressed, Schopenhaurian antinatalist. Just look at the clothes he wears: http://uk.eonline.com/eol_images/Ent...30114_copy.jpg

Nor will he back for more next season:

Matthew McConaughey Won Season 2 | Variety

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

You have to be a natty (or ratty) dresser when you dance on the edge of the Abyss.
Take your choice.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

On the subject of attires:

http://i.imgur.com/rYxxADd.jpg

It seems Reggie Ledoux was a much more disturbed individual than previously imagined :eek:

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

One of 'em's yellow!!!

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

That would be Fluttershy, whose weak voice can be accurately described with the words of the black woman from True Detective: "a wind of invisible voices." :drunk:

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Brilliant!

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Amen to that.

Political Correctness is a social disease that infects us all to more or less degree, and restrains our thoughts. Some use it openly and shamelessly to ride the highest waves of popularity of the present, speaking only the "correct, right, and good" things. Screw them! Most of us are so stuck in fashions, that we unwillingly are unable even to tell PC opinions apart from more objective truths. The greatest artists, the most daring, don't give a damn about PC, they ignore it, and aren't afraid of being stigmatized by the moralizers of the controlling capitalist media establishment, they sweep PC aside, and enforce their way into a future of truly dynamic visions!

The lies of present society will surely soon topple over.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

lol


http://theweek.com/article/index/257...tective-parody

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Perhaps the deepest regret over my book collection, was selling the original three Arkham House 1960's editions of Lovecraft's fiction, after I had got the new revised editions. :(

Sure, I have better texts now. But lost the design of the older books, that for me harboured the spirit of Lovecraft. The Coye covers were just right, enigmatic and old-fashioned in feel. And there was the very nice photograph of Lovecraft on the back of the Dunwhich Horror volume.

The revised volumes have none of this genuine feel. They are too modern in design. And the photos of Lovecraft are not sharp, but taken from second generation photo copies. :eek:

Second hand copies of the original volumes are really expensive to get now. And anyway, it still wouldn't be the same as having back my own books that I bought new, and read and loved and discovered Lovecraft in. Some things are just lost, and can't ever be retrieved. :drunk:

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I agree completely, Kyngathin. The Coye illustration of The Dunwich Horror was my favorite. In my mind, that animalistic giant is Wilbur. And the lashed sticks and congeries of spheres floating like balloons attached to Wilbur...what a wonderful cover!

The new ones are technically good but sterile and generic, and they leave me cold...like a few of the 'corrected' texts do. {Regarding the texts, among other things, I'll be amazed if that final sentence in "Medusa's Coil" is Lovecraft's.)

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Druidic, that's the first time I've heard someone express that opinion.

Others have told me, "The old covers are crude and look awful. Those are from the old days, when they couldn't afford real artists. The new paintings are great! They are realistic looking. Improvement in every way!" and "There is nothing wrong with the new photographs!?! What are you talking about? The printing is excellent! And easier to read type.".

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Kyngathin, there is a good collection of Coye’s work in the Metropolitan Museum, hardly a warehouse for hacks! And since we just had an exchange regarding Michael Shea’s brilliant story “The Autopsy,” it’s probably appropriate to point out that Coye was also a medical illustrator and attended many autopsies to enhance his knowledge of human anatomy. In the ‘80’s I drove to Syracuse University to view their collection of Coye’s art. He worked in many mediums and Wiki has a good albeit brief entry that mentions all this plus the fascinating stick figures that haunt some of his work. (If you’ve read Wagner’s “Sticks” the basic story told of how the artist found these things is quite true.) The new covers are fine for what they are but face it: there are dozens, if not hundreds of equally good illustrations of Cthulhu and Friends on the ‘net alone. Coye’s work was stripped down to the essentials; it was primitive and unsettling and it caught the dark and unique soul of Lovecraft’s fictions like some wonderful and sinister folk art. The new books are pretty though, I’ll certainly give them that LOL. (Actually, The Bayless illo of "The Lurking Fear" which provides the cover for the latest AH Dagon isn't half-bad, even if seemingly more reminiscent of Machen's horrors, but the others miss the mark completely... for me at least.)

You have better taste than your friends, Sir!

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

After watching the season finale, I do wonder how much Ligotti had to with that one....the ending dialogue, I mean. With Cohle looking like Christ, and talking about light defeating darkness?

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

It was Ligottian up to the mention of a greater darkness beyond the darkness of death. Everything after that, well...

Here's this. From Alan Moore's comic Top 10, published in 2000. Mild spoilers ahoy! Don't click full view until you've seen the episode. I do wonder if it's a deliberate sneak reference, like the Ligotti paraphrasing from the first episodes...

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Well, I think Pizzolatto warned us that the character might change...all that talk about a hard won optimism...and Malone, among others, saw the (inevitable?) arc of redemption in one of his posts...

Personally, I liked it. No tricks, it's not the garbage that the lazy writers of "The Following" are turning out...but, yeah, the optimistic ending is definitely going to disappoint some fans of Cohle's character. The near death encounter with his daughter was a bit too manipulative for me.

But overall it was a hell of a show. That plunge into "Carcosa" was enough to make me forgive a somewhat tacked-on happy ending.

It was a stunning piece of work in general.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

It was simple but I've not been more terrified in my adult life.

Did Cohle's character change? He didn't fight "bad guys" just because. He always believed in "light and dark".

I'd also like to point out that it isn't a happy ending: they survived...with "acolytes" (and perhaps more) still in the woodwork.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I thought it ended perfectly...I was a little worried that the end confrontation would fizzle when Childer's house turned out looking like it was ripped from Texas Chainsaw Massacre (I love original film, btw; it's just been over-used)...but the chase through the ruined theater was amazing and Rust's final visions were enough of a nod to the Yellow King mythos for me...

I also think a single optimistic comment from Rust is hardly a sign of redemption...the "warm darkness" sounded like his death wish had intensified...

Given that Rust, Marty, and the Tuttle clan all survived, I wonder if a future season will pick up the story.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I think Cohle’s character did change somewhat. Pizzolatto’s comments about”hard won redemption” didn’t come out of nowhere. The Rust I knew from 7 episodes would poo-pah those feelings he experienced as he lay dying…attribute them to the brain and body shutting down, and then quote scientific studies to back him up. (I remember in CATHR Ligotti complaining about Seven’s final scenes being softened by Morgan Freeman’s reading of a Hemingway quote…I wonder what he thought of TD’s ending.}

But, however you view it, the final episode delivered and I’ll leave nitpicking to people who get paid to nitpick. It was a great show and Speaking Mute may be right about a possible return for the guys.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Does anyone know the location of the catacombs/ruins where the final episode was shot? I've been looking around on the internet without much luck.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Druidic, those are some excellent, well founded thoughts you present there in your post.

I won't press the off-topic more after this, but only wish to add a few more thoughts, probably already obvious to you. But still, to further clear my mind. Yes, The Dunwich Horror cover is wonderful, and while I don't technically picture Wilbur like that, Coye's illustration has a symbolical quality that captures an essence. And he also grabs Wilbur's grotesque proportions very well. Further, this more abstract approach leaves room for the reader's own imagination to roam. Naturalistic images are definite, and therefore tie down the imagination.

It's not like Coye couldn't draw. He could draw realistic too. But he chose to distort to present a mood, something deeper than mere surface. He also did som fine sculpture.

The modern masses are usually vulgar, and judge the quality of a work of art only by how realistic and precise it can be.

I have nothing against naturalistic painting otherwise, but it works better standing on its own as a self-contained medium. (The most talented naturalistic artists are able to instill depth and soul into their work by subtle emphasis.) In some cases, if it happens to coincide and harmonize with my own imagination, then it works on a book cover.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Hi guys, signed on just to comment on this thread:

The ending to the show (or first season at least...) is abysmal, not only from a storytelling point, but especially from the perspective of the characters.

Not to spoil anything for the people who have not seen it yet, but the final 15 minutes were so disingenuous and so untrue to the character of Cohle that I think it is ridiculous to drag Ligotti into this. What has been posted in this thread before is indeed true: the pessimism depicted in the show is nothing but a fad, a flashy way to create interest. Which is fine of course, because that's the point of entertainment. But it was very foolish of me to think that Pizzolatto or anyone else involved in the show was every interested in pessimistic philosophy beyond its entertainment value.

This show does not make a difference, despite its promise in the first episodes. Like basically any other show, it ends in untruthful Optimism, even though it took a detour through Cohle's pessimism to get there. In a few weeks, everything will be back to normal until the next pseudo-pessimistic fad takes the stage, and the copies of TCATHR that were sold because of the show will rot in somebody's attic, forgotten.

But then of course, "pessimism without compromise lacks public appeal." It was foolish of me to think that there was no compromise to be found on this show..

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Watch Blake's 7, they all die in the end

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Well, seems like I don't need to watch it anymore, then. Also, I'm sure it's for the greater good...

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

No, they're just killed relatively pointlessly...it's pretty satisfying...it's a more entertaining show than True Detective too