Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Aaaaaand...

Nic Pizzolatto throws Weird Fiction under the bus...

True Detective creator Nic Pizzolatto looks back on season 1

Wow.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Thank Azathoth for the Death of the Author!



NB: The quote in your signature is one of the best aphorisms I have ever read. Where does it come from?

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I think all that hedging about mentioning Ligotti at the very beginning pretty much hinted at this. The guy should be a politician.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

The Pizzolatto interviews did not exactly inspire confidence:

"And if we’re talking about hard-boiled detectives, too, what could be more hardboiled than the worldview of Ligotti or Cioran? They make the grittiest of crime writers seem like dilettantes. Next to “The Conspiracy Against the Human Race,” Mickey Spillane seems about as hard-boiled as bubble gum."

Opposing LIFE! Hardcore, right!?!? In other news Slayer is heavier than Metallica!!!

Ligotti isn't buying it:

"Anything truly disturbing can’t even be written. Even if it could, no one could stand to read it. And writing is essentially a means of entertainment for both the writer and the reader. I don’t care who the writer is - literature is entertainment or it is nothing. Some readers would object and point to someone like Lautremont's "Les Chants De Maldoror." If they want to see it that way, it's fine with me. Who am I deny someone their demonic heroes? No one has that much credibility in the history of humanity, nor ever will."

Evidently Pizzolatto missed that part. It's easy to imagine him thinking:

"Ligotti seems underground and hardcore. Need to steal his ideas and sell them to the mainstream! I doubt anyone will notice, so I won't mention him as an influence, even as I rephrase exact quotes from his work. Anyway, this 'antinatalism' gimmick is too hardcore for the masses...need to sell it to them in a form they understand...drag racing, no...hmm...young middle class women navigating the New York dating scene...wait...a detective story! TRUE DETECTIVE."

More interview greatness:

"The totality of Cohle’s character and the show’s agenda won’t be clear until the eighth episode has ended. It’s also important to me that the mass audience doesn’t need to know or engage these associations in order to enjoy the show. Likewise, I wouldn’t want any viewers to assume we had some nihilistic agenda, or reduce Cohle to an anti-natalist or nihilist. Cohle is more complicated than that."

Translation: redemptive arc!

Second translation: "I totally get all that pessimistic darkness but I can see that there's more to life than that. The pessimistic darkness is only a small part of life. Sort of like an iron-on patch on my jacket. That gets me cred."

I'm being unfair. It just seems funny that people expected anything other than mainstream entertainment from...mainstream entertainment!

For another example of avant ideas being stolen/diluted by television, see: the Lawrence Miles thread.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

To be honest, I think the most interesting part of the show was to see how people would react to Ligotti's ideas. Most have been mocking Cohle or have tried to disqualify his monologues with ad hominem attacks, which was to be expected. Also, he was frequently deemed a "nihilist" which, as we know, is bull#### of course, because that term is as meaningless as the concept it denotes (especially when applied to someone like Cohle, who has a moral code, which, at least in my opinion is the antithesis of nihilism).

But I think what bugged me is who people on the net have tried to discredit him as juvenile, when I belief that there is no philosophy more adult than pessimism. Then again, the number of viewers who have ever really taken the time to think about "the meaning of life" is probably close to zero. And that's fine I guess, but I feel like the show - and especially its ending - has somewhat lessened the legitimacy of pessimistic philosophy in the public eye after introducing people to it at first. If anys such thing was even possible...

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Tagline for hypothetical Antinatalist Drag Racing project: "In the race out of nonexistence and into life, whoever wins... loses."

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I have mixed feelings about this situation. On one hand, I really enjoyed the series. Tumbled a bit a couple times, but it came round into a relatively satisfying conclusion. On the other, well, there's this bait-and-switch tactic I'm not sure I appreciate.

If anything, I think this makes it clear that there's lots of people expecting and looking forward to a proper weird fiction series (or even a "mythos" series, Cthulhu or otherwise), but one that doesn't hold back nor has to dilute its contents for mass consumption. Here's hoping we eventually get it.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

It is futile to call life futile, because it is.

One day, I may watch True Detective and be able to comment properly on it, but it's on Sky here in the UK, and I haven't got Sky. I have Heaven and Hell, though, with Perpetual Autumn between.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Another:

"Everybody's racing... TO A RED LIGHT!"

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Spoiler if you haven't watched ep. 8 of True Detective:

It seems that Marty's thoughts about a "high functioning retard" committing the murders weren't far off the mark, after all.

It was definitely the chemistry between Harrelson and McConaughey that made TD the show it was and I am sorry to hear that McConaughey won't be returning for season 2.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Hmm, I think I interpreted the last scene differently than some. Hart reminds Cohle of the stories we tell ourselves about the stars. Sure, Cohle found a story he could believe in, about the warm darkness, but it's just a story. Errol went to great lengths to remove himself from the narrative, whereas Cohle never had the 'constitution'.

Cohle's hypersensitive empathy, the thing pushing him towards exit, ironically drew him back to the pain of life. Another story keeps the world turning. Give the man (Rust, not Matt) an Emmy, his acting was so good that he forgot it was an act. Is that not what optimism always is? If that's a flaw, then Cohle was flawed - not the show.

Errol attained his goal. Our hero was crushed under the weight of the world and has lost himself. C'est la vie.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Pizzolatto is trying to put distance between the first and second season already. He knows he's going to go up against his own past performance so he's acting now to diminish expectations.

Since he's turned on Weird Fiction so decisively, we can assume there will be no weird element at all in Season Two and he's trying to prepare viewers for it.
I'd almost feel sorry for the guy but he ended up sounding like such a Quisling.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

But then there's this from the aforementioned interview:

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Spoilers for EPISODE 8:

I completely disagree. The last line of the show is the following:
"Well, once, there was only dark. If you ask me, the light's winning."

People in power continue to rape kids and the light is winning? If that is not a false victory then I don't know what is. He has FOUND himself in his near-death-experience and his pessimism was simply a step on his way. And the goal is the light. As usual.


Apart from that, I would like to quote a comment made by Matt Cardin on a TD article a few weeks ago, in which he succinctly describes the main aspect of Ligotti's ideas (which I'm sure is nothing new to you guys) that is completely lost on this kind of ending:

The Jesus imagery and Cohle's salvation was the very antithesis of Cohle's character in the beginning of the show. Some might call that "growth", I call it bullsh-t.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Translation: "I went back to the bookshelf for more ideas to steal and happened on Pynchon's The Crying of Lot 49. This one's going to be good, folks! Is it a conspiracy or IS IT ALL IN HER HEAD? Stay tuned for Season Two of True Detective!"

Wouldn't be surprised if he actually IMPROVES on the source material by...wait for it...MAKING IT MORE HARD-BOILED!

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Maybe I'm wrong and he'll rip off Far Below this time. Now there's a secret occult history of transportation for you.
Gotta love those subways.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I think we're not disagreeing, at least not right here. The victory was indeed false. My usage of the phrase 'lost himself' should be inverted - he lost himself in his self. Whatever the author's intent, I found the optimism hollow, which seemed to support the theme of the show and the message of Cohle's previous incarnations.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

BTW, this thread is turning into a classic of sorts...likr the antinatalist one but without the excessive venom. Oh, if only The Yellow Jester had appeared!

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Here's a post taken from another site (it was posted anonymously, so I'm afraid I can't give credit). I think it makes for a good explanation on the ending, though it obviously requires the "death of the author" card to work:

As for Rust's apparent turn at the end, well, allow me to quote good ol' Ech-Pi-El:

“...but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.”

Rust's newfound optimism is a sham. He's bought into the delusion he initially opposed, after a glimpse into the true horror at the heart of the cosmos proved to be too much for his cynic little heart.

Of course, this theory borders on apologism, but I kinda dig it :drunk:

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Okay, then I misread your statement. Thats is certainly a possible reading of that scene, although I think it gives the show too much credit. The writing was certainly mostly good throughout its run, but never that subtle.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Pizzolatto made a choice at the end of True Detective. Keeping Rust true to character and giving him the thing he desired most—death—or playing to the audience with a feel-good ending.

His choice will, I think, be a long-term one…and be reflected in all his future works.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I took offense to that scene as it was happening, but afterward the dissonance between Cohle's post-traumatic emotional state and the facts of the case (both of which are in-show true) felt like a challenge. The killer Errol got everything he ever wanted. The FBI is running containment on the Tuttle connection. Marty's family is not his own. Literally countless dead women and children. Cohle couldn't even sink into death as he had intended, even past the edge it was still a world away. Cohle's hope signifies his utter brokenness.

What was that hope, even? That even a miniscule amount of good is preferable to none? He says as much in the 1st episode at dinner, when asked if he likes his job. It wasn't contradictory then, though he would have described such things as just programming. We balk now because it's taken form as some kind of gnostic experience - he's lost perspective and is retreating into the story. He has nowhere else to go. Not even death will have him.

Is Cohle's retreat better or worse than death? Does the show push one view over the other? I really don't know. I'll need some distance to give it a clear evaluation.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

[quote=silence;99989]I think that applies to the author/his story more than to the character of Cohle.

But I also need a little distance, I admit that.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

You're probably right. I do sound like an apologetic. I've been looking forward to rewatching the series almost more than I was to seeing the conclusion, but I must admit that enthusiasm has deflated.

I expected the finale to be a total bumout.... but not like this :|

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

To Silence--

It was still a great show. Enjoy re-watching it, it's worth it. A flawed ending doesn't change that. My only complaint was the mandatory arc of redemption. But that doesn't affect the show's richness, the glorious and desolate landscapes, the fine acting and the many genuinely creepy moments encountered along the journey.

Hodgson's The Night Land is one of my favorite books but it has enough failings to sink a dozen novels. Nevertheless, Lovecraft regarded it as a masterpiece of cosmic horror ...and so do I.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

The Washington Monthly has a dark interpretation of the ending of True Detective:

Another interpretation, which seems to me to be equally plausible, is that the catharsis of the closing episode is false, and deliberately so. The darkness continues. Marty’s inattention to his family has had profound costs. The show strongly suggests that one of Marty’s daughters has been the victim of sexual abuse, in ways that mirror the detective story, just as the detective story mirrors the story of Marty’s family. Marty doesn’t seem aware of this at all. If Marty and Rust conclude that the light as winning, it is only because they fail to see the darkness that surrounds them, and cannot see it, so long as they continue to live in a world of purely brotherly camaraderie, a war of light against dark where one responds to male violence only with more violence and leaves women’s business to the women. Even when you are confronted with your true situation, you cannot necessarily free yourself from it. The detective’s curse means that you do not escape from Carcosa. You only think that you do because you are willfully blind to the Carcosa that surrounds you, the labyrinth made of the circle that is invisible and everlasting.

Check out the entire article here:
True Detective: Wonders of the Invisible World | Ten Miles Square | The Washington Monthly

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Another interesting take on the finale:

How the 'True Detective' Finale Demonstrated That It's Great Small-Screen Cinema, But Lousy Literary TV

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Did anyone catch Cohle chanelling Burroughs?

Cohle: "Death created time to grow the things that it would kill..."

Burroughs: "Death needs time for what it kills to grow in..."
---from Ah Pook is Here

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I think the main difference between these readings is redemption for the characters and redemption for the viewers. Whatever the subtle implications of the end might be, Cohle, on the level of the character arc, has beem redeemed and is now able to life in a sort of blissful ignorance of the horrors surrounding him. He certainly beliefs in a better future, which I think is simply not earned.

Then there is the redemption the viewers might feel (catharsis is probably the better word for it). I believe most viewers, because of their own optimistic outlook, will not read anything that dark into the ending. And that is, in my opinion, the main fault of the show. As I said, it has never been that subtle. Just one short shot of maybe the higher-ups continuing their crimes would have sufficed to plant this seed of recurrence in the viewers. With this ending, however, people are going to remember the tears and the catharsis they imply, and that is simply a missed opportunity to create something different.

And just on a related note, you can give any piece of fiction a pessimistic spin. Just talk about how, regardless of the narrative itself, every character is doomed to eternal failure and must face his inevitable demise even after the final sentence has been written or spoken. Because that's the not-so secret fate of all life. But these readings tend to sound hollow, even if they are true.

The redemption of the characters within a story is much more important to most readers/viewers than the subtle implications of a deeper darkness.

That being said, I would have lost my mind if the show had gone full-on cosmological on our asses, with a great old one consuming the planet or something to that effect. THAT would have been an ending!

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Another opinion:

What the hell kind of ending was that, True Detective?

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I think "we" have to accept the so-called red-herrings (this is actually what this sort of show is about, is it not?).
I agree with ramonoski when he said: TD was not the weird fiction show that "we" are waiting for. It would have been nice if it was--due to the "good-for-tv" acting, production value and appreciable aesthetic qualities of the show which would have juxtaposed nicely with vast unseen things pulling the strings of existence---you know: the new/old scapegoats for our meaningless, futile, irresponsible lives.
However, all the while, TD was simply something else.
Another online voice wondered if everyone was even watching the same show. This seemed a valid point to me, as there was never anything that couldn't be explained by non-supernatural agency in this show--except perhaps the well-read hillbillies, that is.

I too was left with a bad taste from Pizzolatto's comments re: Chambers. I wonder if he did anything more than simply skim The King In Yellow on a hunt for juicy ideas to cannibalize or to "hardboil", as Justin would have it. Saying Chambers's book isn't that great? The first 4-5 stories rank with the very best horror of the period, less flowery and more stylistically inventive than most. Did Pizzolatto and I read the same book?
Speaking of this connection: can anyone explain any further crossover besides the mentions of "Carcosa" and "The Yellow King" in TD to Chambers's The King in Yellow, I've not heard anything convincing, compelling or otherwise in this regard--just another red herring, I guess ;) ---ah shucks

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

It's funny to me that anyone would think the story would turn out any other way than with (at least) partial redemption. Everyone has seen other examples of American popular entertainment before, right?

I thought maybe they'd have the McConaughey character commit principled suicide, but even if they'd gone that direction there was no question in my mind they'd give him (yet another) monologue, this time about his dead daughter. This relationship was the character's most salient emotional point--without it he would have read (justifiably, in my opinion) as an asshole. If he had somehow dishonored his child's memory, that would have been truly surprising; slightly less so would have been if, in the depths of his death experience, he had identified with the killer's worship of cruelty. (For a second I thought they were going there, but instead it was the "warm darkness".)

I think "opportunistic" is perhaps too strong a word for the writer and producers as regards their appropriation of the Chambers and Ligotti source material, but not by much. Really though, why wouldn't a writer wanting to try something "fresh" with noir might spend 20 minutes on Google searching out works slightly more obscure than Lovecraft from which to "borrow"? Lovecraft is well-tilled soil at this point, but 10 or 20 years ago they probably would have gone straight to the Old Gent.

I thought the show was good but added up to slightly less than the sum of its parts. I didn't see how either the choppy timeline or the "conspiracy of powerful men" angle really added that much to the detective story at the heart of the thing. Of even less consequence was the Chambers angle. But in the end, it's right there in the title--this was a detective story, not weird fiction.

As written fiction is a vastly superior art form than film or television, I for one would have no problem if there were no further attempts to plunder "our" literature. But I suspect that instead we're seeing a precedent and, God help us, the next ambitious showrunner to rip off weird fiction may do so as weird fiction. Don't expect the results to conform any closer than TD did to anyone's outré philosophical agendas.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

Just thought I would add this to the mix. It's a quote from The Yellow Jester himself, from that interview he gave to Jeff VanderMeer last year for Wonderbook:

I think Tom's opinion, at least, of where True Detective went (if he even watched the series) is probably not in doubt (although Pizzolatto's after-the-fact comments about the whole-series arc indicate that he wasn't and isn't really coming at things from a personally held pessimist or antinatalist stance, so maybe he sidesteps Tom's point here).

That interview will appear as the final item in Born to Fear, by the way.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I liked it - ending included. Yes, yes . . . redemption is a little trite at times, but with a knife to the gut and a hatchet to the chest we were never sure that they would make it through. There were flaws and missteps, but my line of reasoning goes like this . . . thank heavens someone is at least TRYING to make quality entertainment, and for a lot of us, it was.

Who knows what the future brings, a broader conspiracy perhaps? Whatever, I'll give it its day in court, which is more than what I give to the vast majority of what passes for entertainment these days.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I'm still mystified why everyone see the ending as redemptive or signalling a major shift in Rust's outlook. Rust was terrified to find himself still alive, he left the hospital with a major stomach wound to go have a drink, and he did not "find closure" or "accept" the death of his daughter and father (which would be de rigueur for mainstream optimism). The comments about the "warm darkness" were still a death wish, despite positing a vague afterlife. Marty didn't offer any life affirming wisdom either - he just distracted Rust from his suicidal thoughts, which one would expect would arise again rather quickly. The ending also left open the wreck that is Marty's family life (i.e. there was no resolution with the daughter, for instance - and more than a few hints that Marty may have been involved with her) and an implication that Errol was only mid-level in a greater conspiracy.

This reminds me of people who complain that Seven hedged at the end because of Sommerset's final line; a few statements shouldn't overrule the greater narrative.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

"The light is winning."

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

SPOILERS

The great crime writer, Kenneth Millar (aka Ross MacDonald), wrote that, "The surprise with which a detective novel concludes should set up tragic vibrations which run backward through the entire structure."

TRUE DETECTIVE's ending was surprising and did indeed send "vibrations" which ran backwards throughout its structure. But it had a deleterious--not positive--effect on the whole story.

I was thinking this morning about how the twist that the Big Bad was yet another White Trash Misfit worthy of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre clan was such a tired and unwelcome cliche.

And--most of all--I was thinking about how "the Darkness behind the Darkness speech" came straight from MWINYD. In fact, at the time I was watching it, I had one thrilling and outraged moment when I thought Cohle was going to pull a Domino whole cloth -- saying that everything was just a puppet of this thrashing, horrible darkness, and--even possibly--that EVERYONE must go. And--boom--at the very least Cohle is permanently off his rocker, raving about the Darkness behind the Light, Carcosa and the King in Yellow. At most he begins his new quest by offing his erstwhile partner.

Instead, of course, Nic P in one sentimental, grotesque, outrageous stroke twisted Domino's observations about the Darkness into the warm darkness of eternal love. And then threw in a (lifted) Alan Moore quote about the darkness, the stars, and "the Light" "winning."

All of this reminds me of Poe's famous advice:

Love or hate TD (or something in between), Pizzolatto's interviews and his lifting whole quotes and ideas from his far ranging "influences" reveal a writer who seems far more concerned with success than he is with being true to himself. Which of course makes the title of his show even more ironic than it already is.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

http://puu.sh/5RhS5.gif

Pretty much all I have to say about the way this one ended.

Re: Writer Nic Pizzolatto on Thomas Ligotti and the Weird Secrets of ‘True Detective’
 

I’ve said several times I thought the ending was very satisfying in general, I just perceived a “tacked on happy ending.” (My God, I’m quoting myself.)

It may honestly reflect Pizzolatto’s worldview—he’s gone on record saying he doesn’t hold to any of Rust’s philosophical beliefs—but artistically it doesn’t stay true to Cohle’s character. That hardly ruins the show; just what I regard as a little pandering to the audience, no big deal in the scheme of things.

What bothers me more are the guy’s remarks about Weird Fiction in general. At the start of the series he implied in an interview he didn’t believe in literary ghettoes. After the show’s run, he seems to be inviting comparison of his own work with the Bible, Faulkner and Hemingway while subtly suggesting Chambers and Lovecraft shouldn’t live on the same street as those gentlemen. Just my reading of his remarks.

The dark grim atmosphere that empowered TD was due, in appreciable part, to the use of Chambers mythology and the hints of nightmare Lovecraftian death cults.
Now even animals rarely bite the hand that feeds them…

Very disappointing.