New Atheism
 

I used to be more sympathetic to Gray than I am these days. Question worth asking: would it not surely be better if all those in ISIS were atheists?

What scares the new atheists | John Gray | World news | The Guardian

Re: New Atheism
 

Um, no. No it wouldn't.

Re: New Atheism
 

Sadly, no.

If people weren't engaging in wholesale slaughter of their fellow man over religion, they would simply find something else.

It is humanity's favorite pasttime.

Re: New Atheism
 

Isis is as much a political movement as it is a religious one. Nothing would change.

Re: New Atheism
 

I enjoyed the read - I've never heard of Fritz Mauthner until now, but he definitely seems like someone that should have space on my bookshelf...

Re: New Atheism
 

Recently, during one discussion about Islam Republic movement, one of the interlocutors, when asked how to precisely define ISIS - answered, to paraphrase - Margaret Thatcher said Neoliberalism doesn't have alternative, it took us over thirty years to prove her wrong.

Re: New Atheism
 

ASIS?

I don't think monotheism declining would immediately solve issues of tribalism and nationalism, but a change in the way religious people view spirituality would be most welcome.

Re: New Atheism
 

"How could any increase in scientific knowledge validate values such as human equality and personal autonomy? The source of these values is not science. In fact, as the most widely-read atheist thinker of all time argued, these quintessential liberal values have their origins in monotheism."

Yes. Something similar has been said before - "No Voltaire without Christianity."

Re: New Atheism
 

For some time now, I've suspected that people have used religion as more of an excuse than as a motivation to conflict. The primary motivation being things like resources, land etc.

Though I could be wrong. It's probably a complicated interaction of beliefs and ulterior motives.

It does get very wearying to wake up and see yet more news about people who seem to think the path to spirituality is to make this world even more of a living hell than it already is.

It just made me speculate, though...

Have there been any religions or cults that specifically endorsed making this world as much of a hell as possible? I mean, in very clear, unambiguous language?

I know about the apocalyptic fundamentalists who want to speed things up so the rapture comes sooner, but I wonder if there were any religious sects that endorsed, with sincere single-minded focus, making this world as horrible as it can possibly get, to achieve transcendence? The reasoning being, perhaps, that as long as this world is to any degree bearable, the temptation to stray from the path to god, the ultimate, and instead dwell in the comforts of this world, is too great.

Seems like an idea for a story, maybe.

The sect of absolute hell annihilation. Through the unbearable pinhole of ultimate disaster we will fly...

Re: New Atheism
 

Some individual serial-killers, perhaps. I mean the likes of a Carl Panzam. I suspect even a Pol Pot or Hitler thought the ends justified the means.

Mark S.

Re: New Atheism
 

Yeah, but someone like Hitler seemed to want to establish a society, he wasn't seeking absolute horror. If he was the kind of person I'm imagining, he probably would have welcomed and embraced, say, the fire bombing of Dresden, and the rape spree Soviet soldiers went on in Germany after their defeat.

I guess I was just imagining a kind of religious extremism that goes beyond that, that goes way beyond ISIS and their terror, that wants to make earthly existence so hellish that it is literally unbearable, for the sake of removing every single iota of comfort in this world, and thus blast into transcendence, riding the heavy breath of nuclear, star explosion annihilation.

'Twas just a speculative fancy.

Re: New Atheism
 

Like M.S said, Carl Panzram is probably closest you can get to it, but it's not religious extremism. Anyway, I posted thread about Panzram - that is, documentary about him, here - It should satisfy your thirst.

Carl Panzram The Spirit of Hatred and Revenge 2011 - THE NIGHTMARE NETWORK

Re: New Atheism
 

Pol Pot wasn't seeking hell on earth either. He was trying to create a self-sufficient agricultural society and it went horribly wrong due to ####ty economic policies.

Re: New Atheism
 

I have Carl Panzram's autobiography, though I've only glanced through it so far. He seems a bit like Ragnar Redbeard, if RR put hammer to bone. ####ed up, but rather smart guy.

Thanks for the link.

Edit: I recall he became interested in Immanuel Kant later in life, which I find rather interesting.

Re: New Atheism
 

In J.K. Huysmans' La-Bas mention is made of a "Society of Aristocratical Neo-Theurgists" (f. 1855: in some translations the group is identified as the Re-Theurgists-Optimates) that split into two different camps: "one aspiring to destroy the universe and reign over the ruins, and the other dreaming simply of imposing a demonic cult on the world, of which it would be the high priest."

However, I've been able to find little to no information on this society, and question where Huysmans got this information from (he claims it was based in America and was founded by the poet Longfellow, which was a mistaken assumption on his part). Some old books on the occult/Satanism have claimed that the Society of Aristocratical neo-Theurgists was a secret society located within the Independent Order of Oddfellows, however.

Re: New Atheism
 

You could always email the admin of this great site. I've found him to be very helpful with questions about Huysmans. www.huysmans.org

Re: New Atheism
 

Malone, yeah, I've actually been meaning to get into touch with that guy because I'm (very slowly) assembling a "La-Bas" day for Dennis Cooper's blog and there are some questions I have about that book that I think maybe he could answer for me... just have to get around to writing up an e-mail one day.

Re: New Atheism
 

Jeff's idea reminds me of the Aztec society that the Spanish encountered. They were so committed to brutality that it was their downfall: the surrounding tribes were tired of being preyed upon and joined the Spaniards. Montezuma was constantly tripping on mushrooms, communing with blood thirsty thought-forms telling him to sacrifice more people. Not that the Spanish were much better. This is why I don't agree with Terence McKenna's notion that the introduction of entheogens to a culture will always make that culture more aware, empathetic, or constructive. They are just amplifiers of experience, the nature of the experience is always conditioned by culture, our personal histories etc. Its hard to understand how a substance that makes me want to listen to gay club music and do bunny hops in a glowstick filled room would support a society that was basically run by serial killers.

Re: New Atheism
 

If you're tripping on something and you see people telling you to kill somebody, you likely had that idea awhile before ingesting the substance.

Re: New Atheism
 

Or having one's mind made aware of other dimensions/ways of being, and none of us truly knowing our own mind entirely, drift into an illusory sleep susceptible to the voice from the chemically (sorcery/pharmakon) opened world.